The 5-Out Offense NEEDS to be removed until 2K can improve their AI defense

[NoLeafClover]

A few years back, 2K scrapped the 1-3-1 defense because they didn't have the programming ability to have a team of AI players adapt to it.

We are in the same situation now with the 5-Out Offense as no matter the combination of defensive settings you manually set, a simple pick and roll with 5 out makes the AI utterly confused and incapable of dealing with rotations, leading to a wide open shot either at the basket or at the 3 point line every single play.

It requires no skill or thought to use, and there's a reason it's circulated around YouTube for months on videos such as "BEST CHEESE OFFENSE OMG" or "5 OUT GUIDE FOR EASY WINS LMAO". Literally EVERY person in 5 man game modes such as Play Now Online or MyTeam uses it, as it is broken.

Until 2K can improve their offensive AI to properly adapt, just remove it and make the game play something closer to actual basketball again.

[kabamaru]

Agree 100%

Especially in MyTeam when almost every C has 80+ ratings 5 out is a must

[fizzo]

It's also the strongest offense to run in real life, if you have the personnel for it, including a great ball handler a strong roll man and shooters to spread. Look at Houston this year it's the core of their offense. If OKC had the shooters to run it, you best believe Rus would be tearing it up running 5out pick and rolls all game.

The point is, the defense is bad in 2k17 no matter what offense you run, if the lineups to run it are there, 5out PnRs is some of the strongest offense to run in the real NBA and also in the game. If you wanna play myteam, where everyone can put together a historic all star team, why wouldn't everyone build a team to run the hardest to stop and easiest to execute action in basketball?

As for play now with real teams, there you can actually stop it a reasonable amount of the time, you're gonna have to give something up playing defense but you can usually defend it well enough. Why should a Harden - Capella PnR with 3 snipers around them be easy to stop? You give up a late contested Ariza corner 3 or a semi contested harden midrange.

I'm not saying 5 out offense isn't the strongest freelance to run in the game with the right team, but there will always be a strongest action to run in any sports game.

I am all for them making the defensive AI smarter or making open shots harder to hit, but removing an actual NBA offense, one that is arguably the best 2017 basketball offense, that's used frequently and is a cornerstone for some teams, is entirely different than removing a 1-3-1 defense that you could argue shouldn't be in an NBA video game to begin with.

[Housh123]

I can't believe so many people forgot that 2k came out and said they were making the 2k experience so casual that anyone could come on with minimal practice and drop 20


Let's look at this for real tho



Only like 2 teams in the NBA have the personnel to run 5 out effectively. But now we got a video game where you can build a perfect team

It's supposed to be hard to stop when someone good does it

[NoLeafClover]

Quote: Originally Posted by fizzo

It's also the strongest offense to run in real life, if you have the personnel for it, including a great ball handler a strong roll man and shooters to spread. Look at Houston this year it's the core of their offense. If OKC had the shooters to run it, you best believe Rus would be tearing it up running 5out pick and rolls all game. The point is, the defense is bad in 2k17 no matter what offense you run, if the lineups to run it are there, 5out PnRs is some of the strongest offense to run in the real NBA and also in the game. If you wanna play myteam, where everyone can put together a historic all star team, why wouldn't everyone build a team to run the hardest to stop and easiest to execute action in basketball? As for play now with real teams, there you can actually stop it a reasonable amount of the time, you're gonna have to give something up playing defense but you can usually defend it well enough. Why should a Harden - Capella PnR with 3 snipers around them be easy to stop? You give up a late contested Ariza corner 3 or a semi contested harden midrange. I'm not saying 5 out offense isn't the strongest freelance to run in the game with the right team, but there will always be a strongest action to run in any sports game. I am all for them making the defensive AI smarter or making open shots harder to hit, but removing an actual NBA offense, one that is arguably the best 2017 basketball offense, that's used frequently and is a cornerstone for some teams, is entirely different than removing a 1-3-1 defense that you could argue shouldn't be in an NBA video game to begin with.

Huh? The Rockets pretty much always run Capella or Harell in a 4-out with high screens and they always roll to the hoop not fade to the 3pt line like in 2K, Ryan Anderson almost never plays the 5 or they get utterly torched.

Even Golden State has rarely run Durant/Draymond at 5 this year...

Regardless, the "5 out" philosophy in the game of 2K isn't like these anyway, as all the Centers people run can bomb 3's at an 80% clip due to the ridiculously buffed open shot percentages, and allowing an offense in the game that just endlessly creates these looks just exacerbates the issue and ruins the gameplay, as the AI can't properly navigate one PnR let alone when someone does two in a single possession.

[infemous]

I understand your frustration, I stopped playing MTO because of this (as well as steal cheese) but removing a viable tactic from the game is just making it too easy for the devs.

Fix the AI, make it possible to stop and then use your own AI to know what you wanna give them.

I'm really enjoying PNO because as soon as the bench comes in, that 5 out offence doesn't work as well and teams don't know how to act.

Now my biggest issue is being able to stop other types of offence, where people know their sets and plays.. which is actually a fun challenge.

[fizzo]

Quote: Originally Posted by NoLeafClover

Huh? The Rockets pretty much always run Capella or Harell in a 4-out with high screens and they always roll to the hoop not fade to the 3pt line like in 2K, Ryan Anderson almost never plays the 5 or they get utterly torched. Even Golden State has rarely run Durant/Draymond at 5 this year... Regardless, the "5 out" philosophy in the game of 2K isn't like these anyway, as all the Centers people run can bomb 3's at an 80% clip due to the ridiculously buffed open shot percentages, and allowing an offense in the game that just endlessly creates these looks just exacerbates the issue and ruins the gameplay, as the AI can't properly navigate one PnR let alone when someone does two in a single possession.

Ok that's a different issue then. I realize the Rockets standard spacing is 4 out, but it's specifically the 5out PnR not the 5out spacing that's the issue in the game. The Rockets run 4 out spacing but very often they just flow into what is esentially a 5out PnR right after bringing the ball up the court with the 5 screening, and the paint completely open for the 2 PnR players to occupy if they choose so, and also backdoor cuts. They also soometimes just have Andersen screen before the defense is set for a pick and fade. And they have some other great variations of the high spread PnR, where let's say Capella would screen for Harden and Andersen would then screen Capella's man at the very top of the key, before fading out etc. The Thunder do this a lot too except they have to clog the paint cuz with the personnel they have they can't have bigs fade for 3s.

What I'm saying is the philosophy is to not clog the paint with anyone but the roll man, since like you said they don't run 5 shooters with Andersen at the 5. That's some of the closest things to 5 out you'll see and it functions the same as the 5 out PnRs do in the game. If you said that 5out ISOs were impossible to stop, I wouldn't have an argument.

But if it's specifically the 5 being able to fade not just roll that makes the 5out PnR so difficult to defend, then that's just an overpowered line-up issue not the spacing itself.

I'll bring up another point, while in real basketball you need an absolutely incredibly offensively gifted player as the ballhandler for this to work to the point it's deadly. In the game, you have perfect court vision, and eyes at the back of your head, as a user controlling a player, since you can see the entire court, when you drive to the hoop you don't have to think about your footwork while looking over a 7 footer to see if the help is coming and where it's coming from, then actually making the accurate pass to the man who is now open. In the game the moment you see someone rotate you press one button and the person who's open has the ball for an open shot. Or better yet, if it's the center who gets open for a roll gets the pass from a ball handler, but help comes from the corner behind him to double him in the paint, again, in a game it's an instant recognition from you as a user controlling him, one button click and an open three, in real life centers don't have that kind of court vision and the ability to throw perfect lasers to the man who gets open for split second. That's an advantage the offense is always gonna have in a user v user video game.

It's not like i disagree that the 5 out is the best thing to run, and what I just mentioned above plus the really high open shooting %s plus the broken defensive rotations all add to the effectiveness of it. But I don't believe taking it out of the game is a solution. I play a ton of Play now Online, There are very few if any teams and even lineups where I ever feel helpless against it. As for myteam, if you wanna play a mode where the opponent can use a lineup consisting of 10 Hall of Famers not just in their primes, but on their best night to night form, then saying that something has to be taken out of the game because it's overpowered and unrealistic is not really something you can do.

[Darth Aegis]

All valid points. With sports games it so hard to please the masses.