Hoping "Hands Up" MORE EFFECTIVE in 2K20

[MrWrestling3]

Quote: Originally Posted by eaterofworlds888

I feel like I'm always playing with hands up and that it's pretty effective but there are definitely times where it lets the CPU blow by me. I guess that's fine though, I think there should be some kind of risk to using it. I don't know, I see a lot of people saying if you press the right stick towards the ball handler that it's the best way to play defense but I do even worse personally when I try to do that. If I don't use hands up at all though I always get destroyed.

Yeah,if you press straight into the ball handler with right stick it will always put your hands up(depending on your setting);If the ball handler still has a live dribble and is quick he can go around you.

For players with a live dribble trying to dribble drive,pop,etc. you want to push RS either left or right to put the corresponding arm out while shadowing their movement with LS.This helps to contain/bump them so they can't get by.

[Kushmir]

Quote: Originally Posted by MrWrestling3

As a working adult, I get that there is a good chance that developers may be understaffed with tons of works to get done,so time is at a premium and things like full rebuilds just aren't possible. I'm just out here trying to work with what we already have to come up with some solutions that might be practical to implement on limited resources. Now on to business...

This is sooo important. Years ago Czar's explanation about how creating new systems can take an entire dev cycle emphasizes how finding solutions in the current game is paramount. Sliders FTW.

Quote: Originally Posted by MrWrestling3

The way it is right now, Charging Foul Frequency is too low,which lets offensive players bang away without get whistled for it.It also why the AI only rarely tries to take a charge, it literally looks at the Foul Frequency settings and says "Hmm...I'm more likely to get a Blocking Foul than drawing a Charge,I might as well stay with the safer option and try to contest it."

I chuckled reading this . But you're spot on...the AI doesn't perform actions that are low percentage or don't work. That it prefers contesting over drawing charges shows you how badly skewed that part of the game is.

Quote: Originally Posted by MrWrestling3

It is a similar situation with Clip#2, currently in PNO it is set to be a bit lenient on defensive calls.When that type of situations depicted occurs too regularly, it is a sure sign that Foul Frequency(hence the no call despite clear contact in the restricted arc) and Layup Defense Strength(giving the contest too much of an effect despite being in bad position) are an issue.

All true. And the simple truth is we don't want EZ-MODE..as it shatters the skill gap. Call fouls--it'll only make the overall game better. Effective contests from "beat" position from JJ Redick should be super RARE. The play below (or a whistle) should be the norm.

[awg811]

Quote: Originally Posted by Kushmir

I get it. But consider my overall point: Redick shouldn't have access to that animation and I said as much--we need to see it from guys like Kawhi, Giannis, Beverly and Gobert. Even then it should have a high foul outcome. Hands Up being OP definitely isn't my experience but that certainly isn't what we want. Consider what I said before about how important "contested makes" are. Hands Up should be effective in some instances (a player with no dribble, being static or spamming pump fake) and should draw more charges when offensive players are over-aggressive but it should affect shot success the least--no reasonable person wants it to turn into a way to guarantee misses. But gameplay like THIS? WE WANT THAT RENDERED INEFFECTIVE.

Pump fake, Travel, Pump fake, travel, double dribble, Pump fake, travel, pump fake, travel, shot. SMH
Defense is nerfed so that the offense has an advantage.
For instance, in your video, it shows that you are having to fight the game to hold you’re position instead of setting your feet and holding your arms high since the offensive player is, supposed to be, stationary and unable to move. Yet, with every single pump fake, he travels and you get moved backwards having to come forward and slightly to the right.
This is one of my biggest complaints about hands up defense!
I hate having to fight the game to play defense and it’s been this way, in some form or fashion, for years.
It’s hard to stay on topic when so many different things are involved that effect something that should be simple like hand up defense.

Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

[MrWrestling3]

Quote: Originally Posted by Kushmir

This is sooo important. Years ago Czar's explanation about how creating new systems can take an entire dev cycle emphasizes how finding solutions in the current game is paramount. Sliders FTW. I chuckled reading this . But you're spot on...the AI doesn't perform actions that are low percentage or don't work. That it prefers contesting over drawing charges shows you how badly skewed that part of the game is. All true. And the simple truth is we don't want EZ-MODE..as it shatters the skill gap. Call fouls--it'll only make the overall game better. Effective contests from "beat" position from JJ Redick should be super RARE. The play below (or a whistle) should be the norm.

Sliders can be deceivingly complex...just testing own my own I've noticed tweaking certain things even a tiny bit can and does cause the AI to rethink it's entire approach to the game.Examples from my testing include:

-Decreasing the 3pt Shot Success slider as little as 1 less than other shot types makes the number of 3 pointer attempts by the CPU go straight into the toilet.

-I tried increasing Charging Foul Frequency to be greater than Shooting Foul Frequency by 1 point, like magic the AI started trying to draw charges.While this led to an occasional hilariously bad flop attempt by the CPU,they at least showed up a couple times a quarter.

-On the flip side, increasing Reach In Foul Frequency to be greater than Shooting Foul Frequency makes the CPU stop spamming the steal button and only try to reach when it really has a good shot at a clean pick.It also makes the CPU (mostly)stop trying to strip the ball every time you go up near the rim.

Like you said, the AI understands enough to not go for low percentage options.

You are very right about Easy Mode and the skill gap.Like the AI, with experience human players learn and understand enough to not go for low percentage options.Part of the actual game of basketball,and indeed all sports,is being able to see a situation,quickly assess the options available,then make good decisions.

A "One Move To Rule Them All" type situation hurts the experience by oversimplifying what should be a skill based challenge into "Press X to Win".While this is fine during the learning stage as an exercise in timing and decision making skills,it doesn't have a place in actual competition.

[hoopsfan]

Quote: Originally Posted by MrWrestling3

Sliders can be deceivingly complex...just testing own my own I've noticed tweaking certain things even a tiny bit can and does cause the AI to rethink it's entire approach to the game.Examples from my testing include: -Decreasing the 3pt Shot Success slider as little as 1 less than other shot types makes the number of 3 pointer attempts by the CPU go straight into the toilet. -I tried increasing Charging Foul Frequency to be greater than Shooting Foul Frequency by 1 point, like magic the AI started trying to draw charges.While this led to an occasional hilariously bad flop attempt by the CPU,they at least showed up a couple times a quarter. -On the flip side, increasing Reach In Foul Frequency to be greater than Shooting Foul Frequency makes the CPU stop spamming the steal button and only try to reach when it really has a good shot at a clean pick.It also makes the CPU (mostly)stop trying to strip the ball every time you go up near the rim. Like you said, the AI understands enough to not go for low percentage options. You are very right about Easy Mode and the skill gap.Like the AI, with experience human players learn and understand enough to not go for low percentage options.Part of the actual game of basketball,and indeed all sports,is being able to see a situation,quickly assess the options available,then make good decisions. A "One Move To Rule Them All" type situation hurts the experience by oversimplifying what should be a skill based challenge into "Press X to Win".While this is fine during the learning stage as an exercise in timing and decision making skills,it doesn't have a place in actual competition.

You've just stated everything I have been experiencing and testing in regards to CPU reacting to specific slider changes. Especially decreasing certain shot successes, CPU won't aggressively use that option. Well said!

[2_headedmonster]

Quote: Originally Posted by Chemthethriller

Can we change it though? Holding the stick up = light contest; flicking the stick up during shot animation = heavy contest.

I can't tell if you're joking or not. But that's exactly how it works now.

I think hands up defense is plenty effective as it is. As someone pointed out earlier on Hall of Fame it's nearly over powered.

[Kushmir]

Quote: Originally Posted by 2_headedmonster

I can't tell if you're joking or not. But that's exactly how it works now. I think hands up defense is plenty effective as it is. As someone pointed out earlier on Hall of Fame it's nearly over powered.

Doesn't it take two controls now? IIRC you have to be pushing away from the ball-handler, no? If i'm wrong pardon me--simple and intuitive controls FTW tho.

Hands Up being OP is hardly my experience in PNO. That's certainly not the goal--more contextual animations is.

[Kushmir]

Quote: Originally Posted by MrWrestling3

A "One Move To Rule Them All" type situation hurts the experience by oversimplifying what should be a skill based challenge into "Press X to Win".While this is fine during the learning stage as an exercise in timing and decision making skills,it doesn't have a place in actual competition.

Press X to Win might be my favorite phrase of all-time....no seriously

The play below is a perfect example of an instance where the help defender (Embiid here) could draw a charge. Obviously Embiid's contesting tendency would be high but perhaps every once in awhile........that said, guys like Lowry and Ilyasova would absolutely go into stationary Hands Up and draw fouls in situations like these.



Redick is already moving so "holding" Hands Up would trigger easy blocking foul (we dont want a cheesy way to create offensive fouls) But pointing the R-stick at Green would initiate a shot contest.