Cheesing

[rhombic21]

Quote: Originally Posted by dghustla

1) You can do a quick audible to blitz all your linebackers. 4-3 cover 2 or 3 is a default audible unless you take it out. So if you audible to 4-3 then L1 and blitz all linebackers it's the same as an all-out blitz. 2) This is not cheesing I'm sorry. If I have 3 blockers to your 1 corner or linebacker, I'm suppose to have the odds in my favor. This is football it's a chess match. You run plays to set up other plays. Is it cheesing to run up the gut until you bring all your players down then go playaction over the top?

1) Yeah, the problem relates to the speed thing on NCAA '09. With extremely fast players (96+ SPD), it is extremely easy to run around the edge, even if everybody has been hot routed to blitz. You essentially have to use a combination of blitzing and contain assignments, which can be difficult to set up pre-snap.

Let me give you an example. I played one guy who took Florida, and ran an Ace Trips formation all game. He had package subbed Harvin in as the backup QB, and would use him to run option plays to either side (depending on if it was man or zone, and how I lined up). He would also put Tebow in and run a few passing plays. All that I ever saw in the playcall screen was 3 WR 1 TE 1 HB. Which meant that I essentially had to come to the line prepared to defend against his pass (which often times involved having to set up blitzes and coverages that themselves involved hot routing and manual positioning), but then try to adjust at the last minute if Harvin was in at QB. You literally have 8 seconds to get your entire defense set up. And you have to stay in base personnel (4-3) all game, because of the run possibility.

2) The problem with the screen pass is two-fold. First, the AI will almost never react to guard the screen appropriately, even if it has been run several times in a row. Essentially what this means is that you have to defend all screen passes (HB and WR) manually. This is where the second part of the problem comes in. Many people will call these screen plays, but then throw to a non-screen receiver if you manually cover the screen. Since most people online play with an MLB or a safety (due to the problems with the AI's pass coverage abilities, it becomes necessary to control these players in order to make up for the AI's issues), then you can pretty easily come up with scenarios where you run a receiver either deep or over the middle, and then simply wait and throw to whichever receiver the human defender doesn't guard.

[rhombic21]

Quote: Originally Posted by dghustla

Quarters is not cheesy D if the other person is running 4-5 wide sets. Truthfully I never really considered it cheesy if someone else ran this. I would just go I-formation and run right up their ***. pluse quarters only have about 2 different zone coverages and a few zone/man looks but most ppl only run the two zones. so it's easy to attack when you know where the holes are in the coverage.

The quarters alignment that I'm talking about is effective against the run also, due to several problems with the AI's blocking assignments, which this formation can manipulate. There are ways to run the ball against it, but it's still pretty difficult, and a lot of stuff that should work, doesn't.

http://files.filefront.com/quartersc.../fileinfo.html

[PantherBeast_OS]

Quote: Originally Posted by rhombic21

The biggest issue with non-QBs at QB is that the game doesn't give you the players, it just gives you the offensive personnel. If you sub a non-QB position player in as the backup QB, and then use package subs to randomly put him in the game to run QB runs, the game displays it as the same personnel grouping that is used when the regular QB is out there. If you use one of the formations that is designed for a package sub with a non-QB player (such as wildcat), it will give you the correct personnel grouping. Generally, non-QB players do not have good enough throwing ratings to be a legitimate pass threat, but the problem is that since the defense never knows when they have been subbed into the game, you can only make adjustments at the line, rather than calling plays in the huddle designed to stop the run and/or contain a scramble. In reality though, most of the truly harcore cheesing doesn't involve that, or really even going for it on fourth down. It primarily involves taking mobile QBs and scrambling around in completely unrealistic ways after the ball is snapped, and using certain defensive formations/alignments (the quarters show blitz alignment in particular) that are unrealistically effective. It also involves abusing certain plays that are extremely over effective, such as HB and WR screen passes, which are effectively impossible to defend consistently without making yourself completely vulnerable to virtually any other playcall. Other examples would be things such as putting a HB in at FB, and then running FB dives repeatedly (mixing in toss plays and passing plays). In terms of going for it on fourth down, that's not a huge problem, but it's really just a function of the way that the game plays. Offense is generally fairly easy on the game, which means that a 4th and 8 is not as difficult to convert as it would be in real life, and is therefore less risky to go for. Cheesing can also involve things like kicking onsides kicks repeatedly, or poor sportsmanship manuevers, such as running up the score.

Yes very true my friend. I hated it when people would just repeatly use the same buble screen time after time just to get a quick first down are a quick score.

[jdrhammer]

Quote: Originally Posted by blackscorpion11

My view on cheesing is anything that intentionally takes advantage of CPU AI tendencies/ mistakes. Examples.. DL slow? Cheese= drop qb back 15-20yds or roll to sideline at snap to buy extra time for receivers to separate. I had a guy cheese one time by going no huddle from the start of the game.. That lasted only until i took the lead and stopped him on defense. cheesing takes the fun out of the game because A: it's a form of cheating, B: it makes the game about cheesing and counter-cheesing and not about football.

Nicely said. Like some of the others, no-huddle hasn't bothered me too badly. I have my audibles set so I normally change out quickly.

Cheesing ain't cool, no matter how you slice it.

[tearyourshirt]

Being a Texas Tech fan, I can see 2 of Mike Leach's tactics that probably would be called cheesing: going for it on 4th in your own territory and the no huddle. In regards to Leach, I think that he believes in his offense so much and that the fourth down play is such a crapshoot that he goes for it in his own territory, knowing that if he makes it he keeps the drive going and if not, they'll put up enough points to make up for it. They seem to have the same feeling about turnovers because Leach doesn't feel the opponent can score enough to keep up.

As for the no huddle, I guess (in the videogame aspect) it can go either way. Personally, because I like running the Air Raid, I do it because that's how the system is run. But I don't just run the same play over and over and over. I make up the staple Air Raid plays at the line (kinda how Tech does) Here's an example drive:
Call the formation that looks like this (its Techs base formation)

__x_____ooooo______z
_____h__________y
__________q_f

1. 1st and 10 on your 20- call the HB screen. Get to the line and quick audible to HB draw. Don't huddle after play
2. Quick audible up to quick slants. Hot route-
X-smart route to post
H-drag
Y-drag
Z-fade
F-slant toward Y
now you have a mesh play or

__x_____ooooo______z
_____h__________y
__________q_f


X-fade route
H-post
Y-drag
Z-in (can smart route if you like)
F-slant to Y or keep in to block
now you have a shallow crossor

__x_____ooooo______z
_____h__________y
__________q_f


X-fade
H-streak or smart route curl
Y-streak or smart route curl
Z-fade
F- hook or block
now you have a 4 verts play or

__x_____ooooo______z
_____h__________y
__________q_f


X-slant in
H-curl; motion right
Y-out
Z-fade or streak
F-block
now you have a stick playor

__x_____ooooo______z
_____h__________y
__________q_f


X-curl (streak if you think its cover 2 zone)
H-smart route to corner
Y-smart route to corner
Z-curl (streak if you think its cover 2 zone)
F-block or curl
now you have a smash play

by this time hope fully you're somewhere close to the red zone so that you can finally call your original play, the HB screen and putting 6 on the board using Air Raid concepts and plays. But I hope you can see through all of that that no huddle can be a sim-type tactic if used properly.

[WarrickNole]

no lie i had a guy run a fake FG run with DEMPS at qb holding for UF...wow...and he just out ran even my all blitz D! i was pi$$ed...
and he onside kicked every time...and he got like 3 of them...boy was i angry..but he ended up losing connection (Serves ya right!) and i went on to come back and beat the cpu to get the win!

[Moostache]

Quote: Originally Posted by tearyourshirt

Being a Texas Tech fan, I can see 2 of Mike Leach's tactics that probably would be called cheesing: going for it on 4th in your own territory and the no huddle. In regards to Leach, I think that he believes in his offense so much and that the fourth down play is such a crapshoot that he goes for it in his own territory, knowing that if he makes it he keeps the drive going and if not, they'll put up enough points to make up for it. They seem to have the same feeling about turnovers because Leach doesn't feel the opponent can score enough to keep up. As for the no huddle, I guess (in the videogame aspect) it can go either way. Personally, because I like running the Air Raid, I do it because that's how the system is run. But I don't just run the same play over and over and over. I make up the staple Air Raid plays at the line (kinda how Tech does) Here's an example drive: Call the formation that looks like this (its Techs base formation) __x_____ooooo______z _____h__________y __________q_f 1. 1st and 10 on your 20- call the HB screen. Get to the line and quick audible to HB draw. Don't huddle after play 2. Quick audible up to quick slants. Hot route- X-smart route to post H-drag Y-drag Z-fade F-slant toward Y now you have a mesh play or __x_____ooooo______z _____h__________y __________q_f X-fade route H-post Y-drag Z-in (can smart route if you like) F-slant to Y or keep in to block now you have a shallow crossor __x_____ooooo______z _____h__________y __________q_f X-fade H-streak or smart route curl Y-streak or smart route curl Z-fade F- hook or block now you have a 4 verts play or __x_____ooooo______z _____h__________y __________q_f X-slant in H-curl; motion right Y-out Z-fade or streak F-block now you have a stick playor __x_____ooooo______z _____h__________y __________q_f X-curl (streak if you think its cover 2 zone) H-smart route to corner Y-smart route to corner Z-curl (streak if you think its cover 2 zone) F-block or curl now you have a smash play by this time hope fully you're somewhere close to the red zone so that you can finally call your original play, the HB screen and putting 6 on the board using Air Raid concepts and plays. But I hope you can see through all of that that no huddle can be a sim-type tactic if used properly.

The problem is that the defensive hot-routes are not nearly as effective and neither are the audibles on D...the game gives too much advantage and no negatives to the offense (surprise!) to consider constant no huddle outside the 2 minute warning legit strategy in videogame football...its cheesy because of that, not because it is Mike Leach style football...

[tearyourshirt]

I agree with you fully in that regard, I just wanted to illustrate that a no huddle offense can be done with real strategy as the basis. But keep in mind, attacks like this are difficult to defend in real life (Oklahoma, Tx Tech, Tulsa, watch Auburn this year) And I have met people online that can slow it down, so defending an all-out passing attack is possible on the game, but it takes a lot of knowledge and skill. Also, I have seen my players tire and not go after balls as aggresively if there are too many plays in the drive, so there can be setbacks for the offense as well.