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Old 06-29-2009, 04:42 PM   #41
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Re: Cheesing

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Originally Posted by floppychulo
I know this is a touchy subject, but for a person who doesn't play online, I'm curious about the whole "cheesing" thing and why folks get sooo bent out of shape. I've read on different threads about formation subs being bad because people would put non-qb's in their lineups to gain an advantage. Teams do this in real life, so what's the problem? Look at UVA. They used Vic Hall, a high school QB and starting CB to play QB. Hell, he's atop the post spring depth chart. Then there is the whole "Wildcat" phenomenon. A big part of football is getting your best players on the gridiron, and putting them in positions to make plays by taking advantage of mismatches. Does any of that count as cheese? Again, I'm not trying to ruffle any feathers I'm just asking. What if your playing someone with a weird man crush on Mike Leach and is passing the ball just about every down and wants to go for it on 4th and 8 from their own 30 early in the first quarter for no good reason? Just wondering.
A.) I have no idea why "cheesing" is the term we use for this, it seems to be exclusive to EA football games as well.

B.) I believe the most objective definition of cheese is exploiting something that the game AI prohibits you from stopping, or makes it very, very difficult. Such as running around in circles to mess up pursuit lanes, sending Percy Harvin on streaks evey play, or the triple option in 08. (Set up plays will become the main cheese gripe of '10, calling it now. Why? Because it creates a scenario where you can do basically nothing to stop a score). Percy Harvin at QB, going for it on 4th down, or going for 2 all the time are NOT cheese, those can easily be stopped. Maybe that's why EA wants to make a non-sim game, because of people crying about being destroyed.

Theres a difference between not being good at the game and getting burned, and the game engine making it near impossible for you to stop, i think i made myself clear enough on the definition.
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Old 07-01-2009, 06:35 PM   #42
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Re: Cheesing

The whole game is cheese even straight plays like the Curl, option, slant, drag, out route, FB dive, Pa roll outs and, many of the flat routes. Curls I think are the chessiest thing in the game. I am not kidding it gets old playing some freakin "Madden Nation rip-off dork" who is 500-200 and runs them all day long.
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Old 07-01-2009, 06:59 PM   #43
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Re: Cheesing

That's why you should just play people you know. That way you get a str8 game every time. I'm looking forward to the MWCS, it's a str8/sim ladder over at that site.
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Old 07-02-2009, 12:42 PM   #44
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Re: Cheesing

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Originally Posted by jWILL10

(like not passing the ball 100% of the time unless the QB is subpar, but even then, 80% is pushing it).
Yeah, Texas Tech only passed 68.8% of the time last year (including sacks as pass plays), so throwing 80% of the time to me is unsim unless you are using a team that normally throws all the time.

But that's not what I would call cheese. I don't think that situational strategic play calling is needed to not cheese (except for stuff like punting). There are plenty of real coaches who are very predictable or bad play callers. To me there is a difference in 'cheese' and being 'unsim.'
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Old 07-02-2009, 12:55 PM   #45
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Jeff Fedotin
Special to Rivals High
******** language=javascript>document.write("
");» MORE: The nation's top 100 teams | 2008 high school football state champions
Kevin Kelley decided to flip football convention on its head after Pulaski (Ark.) Academy's second game of the 2007 season.
Never a fan of taking his offense off the field, the coach became miffed when his Bruins punted away to Pine Bluff (Ark.) Dollarway High only to see Pulaski allow an 80-yard touchdown on the return.
******** language=Javascript>document.write(insertImage('http://vmedia.rivals.com/uploads/1185/737482.jpg', '737482.jpg', 1, 320, 220, 1, 'The \"never punt\" philosophy paid off as Pulaski celebrated a state title', '', 1230053948000, 'PulaskiinStory', 1185, 'Align=Left'));"That was stupid," Kelley said. "We should've gone for it."
As a result, his 2008 team did not punt during 14 games. Such an unorthodox strategy may seem like lunacy, but it was successful: Pulaski won the 5A state title on Dec. 6.
Kelley's team only punted twice in 2007 − once as an act of sportsmanship to prevent running up the score − and never after that Dollarway game.
Kelley has reasons to go for it.
Keeping the offense on the field on fourth down allows for more creative play-calling. Third-and-long does not have to be a passing down. The Little Rock school can run the ball, throw a screen pass or use any number of formations. Defenses do not know whether to use a nickel or dime defense. And Pulaski's offense has less pressure on third down.
"We don't really worry too much about it," quarterback Spencer Keith said. "We just get as many yards as we can. We don't have to go for the first down."
If Pulaski converts on fourth down, it creates a momentum change similar to a turnover. Other high school coaches have told Kelley they would rather see his team punt.
The Bruins even avoid punting when the defense has stopped them inside their own 10-yard line.
"You can just tell people are in the stands thinking, 'You're an idiot,' " Kelley said.
Kelley supports this rationale with numbers analysis.
If Pulaski has a fourth-and-8 at its own 5-yard line, Kelley said his explosive offense likely will convert a first down at least 50 percent of the time. If it fails to convert, statistical data from the college level shows that an opponent acquiring the ball inside the 10-yard line scores a touchdown 90 percent of the time. If Pulaski punts away (i.e., a 40-yard punt with a 10-yard return) the other team will start with the ball on the 38-yard line and score a touchdown 77 percent of the time. The difference is only 13 percent.
An innovative and statistics-minded coach, Kelley had tinkered with eschewing the punting game since winning his first state championship in 2003. He became further emboldened after reading several studies, including "Do Firms Maximize? Evidence from Pro Football," by University of California-Berkeley economics professor David Romer. Kelley also examined ZEUS, a computer program developed by Chuck Bower, who has a doctorate in astrophysics, and Frank Frigo, a game theory expert, to model and predict football outcomes.
The Pulaski coach has adopted an unusual approach to kickoffs as well. About 75 percent of the time, he uses an onside kick instead of a standard kickoff. To illustrate why, Kelley again relies on numbers.
If his team does not recover the onside kick, the opponent likely will field the kick around its own 47-yard line. On a typical kickoff, the other team usually starts around the 33-yard line.
"You're only giving up 14 yards," Kelley said. "And you get a chance to get the ball."
Pulaski features seven different kinds of onside kicks, including bunching eight players on one side of the field and three on the other; faking the kick with one kicker while another player shifts over to kick to a vacated spot in coverage; clustering all 11 players before spreading out just as the ball is kicked; bouncing a hard kick off the turf for a jump ball and launching a "helicopter kick" by kicking a ball placed on the ground against the tee. The latter strategy causes the ball to spin like a helicopter's propeller and move like a curveball.
"Much like the punting situation, [the onside kick] becomes something the other team has to work on a lot during the week," Kelley said. "That's taking time from their preparation against your offense or defense. So it all works towards the common goal."
For Kelley's objective of winning games with a risky but aggressive offense, Pulaski had the perfect quarterback. Keith, who has received major interest from Louisiana Tech, Arkansas State and several Ivy League schools, could make defenses pay for not stopping the Bruins on fourth down. And if the other team scores off a short field because of a missed fourth-down opportunity, the unflappable passer could compensate by scoring points in a hurry.
Kelley called him the most athletic quarterback he has ever coached, and Keith set the state record with 5,308 passing yards this season. He also possesses the requisite accuracy for an offense that threw on about 45 of its 75 plays a game and averaged 570 total yards.

You can just tell people are in the stands thinking, 'You're an idiot.'



— Kevin Kelley, coach of Pulaski Academy



"It's a really fun offense," Keith said. "I wouldn't change it for anything."
A possible pre-med or pre-engineering student who scored a 30 on the ACT, Keith has the intelligence to master an intricate scheme, which features pre- and post-snap reads with receivers making adjustments based on coverage.
With Keith and several other impact players returning from his 2007 team, Kelley said he knew his team had the potential for a state title this year. When the media asked for his pick of the No. 1 team in Arkansas before the season, Kelley chose Pulaski and consequently received some heat.
"It was just confidence in my guys," he said. "I thought this might be one of the better teams we've ever had."
His prediction proved to be on the mark. Although Pulaski lost its first game of the season, 46-29, to West Helena, it reeled off 13 consecutive wins and avenged that Week 1 defeat with a 35-32 state title victory against the Cougars.
During the offseason Kelley will begin investigating different football strategies. He also plans to further study the punting game by analyzing specific instances where punting may prove statistically superior.
After Kelley searches through data, Pulaski may tweak its approach next year. His 2009 team could punt on occasion, or he may develop a new tactic that defies the norms of football but gives his team an edge. "Just because something's always been done that way," Kelley said, "doesn't mean it should continue to be done that way."
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Old 07-02-2009, 01:16 PM   #46
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Re: Cheesing

That Kelley dude is a cheeser, fo sho. But really, in high school FB with a good team you could get away with that more so than in competitive college or pro games. Just think of how bad it would suck to play defense for this Kelley guy... he seems to have no faith in you, and when you're on the field, you're always in a tough spot.
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Old 07-02-2009, 03:22 PM   #47
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Re: Cheesing

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Originally Posted by steelers1
The going for it on 4th and 8 is cheesing and really annoying because that's not real football. No coach in his right mind would ever go for it on a 4th down from deep in their own territory early in the game.

And it wouldn't be a problem to put speedy guys in at QB if the game had proper physics. The problem is that you can put a CB or WR in at QB and scramble around for 15 seconds and without even slowing down can turn and throw across his body 15 yards behind the LOS and complete a pass. It's not realistic and it's annoying.
I'm not that type of player, but why would you get mad if they went for it on 4th. Just stop them and get the good field position. Also, some of you people have not even played the demo yet because if you did you would have noticed that when you start scrambling around, your passing icons are no longer up on the screen. They disappear. Also when qbs get hit while throwing the ball (especially when scrambling), they throw terrible passes that will usually get snatched by a defensive lineman.
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Old 07-02-2009, 03:38 PM   #48
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Re: Cheesing

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Originally Posted by cjamestx
I'm not that type of player, but why would you get mad if they went for it on 4th. Just stop them and get the good field position. Also, some of you people have not even played the demo yet because if you did you would have noticed that when you start scrambling around, your passing icons are no longer up on the screen. They disappear. Also when qbs get hit while throwing the ball (especially when scrambling), they throw terrible passes that will usually get snatched by a defensive lineman.
That post you quoted came out way before the demo, which I have played. You can still roll way out of the pocket and still see the icons. To answer your question though, look at the post right above yours. It's annoying. I don't care if I stop them and am already in FG range. I want to play a realistic game against a human opponent. Knowing your opponent is just going to go for it on 4th downs all the time takes a lot of the realism out of it. I'm not a person who is happy to waste my time against a cheeser as long as I win.
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