2k/Visual Concepts - Evolution of the Running Game?

[Kanobi]

I was watching clips of the Chiefs 1st round pick Clyde Edwards-Helaire (RB out of LSU) and it made me think of how far ahead of their time that NFL2k5 and APF 2k8 were with their running game in terms of the blocking and contextual animations for running backs.

I'm curious to see what 2k football's running game would like today on next-gen hardware. If they were to stay on the trajectory they were on, what we would get is likely something visually mind-blowing from an animation/transitional animation standpoint (likely something the NFL has already seen behind closed doors). However, I'm cautious to temper my expectations here.

Anyway, here's the video which got me thinkin' about this:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/xO9KlH09PC4" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Yes, Edwards-Helaire's lateral agility is rather rare but I envision 2k/Visual Concepts as the only development team capable of replicating it (or coming impressively close) as well as countless other natural RB movements in the game considering VC was already 10 years ahead of the competition when they did it in NFL2k5/APF 2k8.

What do you guys think?

[RedmanR]

Re: 2k/Visual Concepts - Evolution of the Running Game?

Dude is underrated but definitely got more JUKES than a ol' school jukebox. . . I would love to see his run style implemented in the upcoming 2K series but if there are NO NFL teams, player likeness or 11 on 11 play what's the point [emoji848]

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

[illwill10]

Re: 2k/Visual Concepts - Evolution of the Running Game?

I always felt the 2k5 & 2k8 had better overall AI compared to Madden. Especially in run blocking. It was so much easier to follow and set up blocks in 2k. Definitely with AI run blocking. It was always great seeing AI blocking with purpose and awareness. Especially past second level of defense. So many times in Madden, you see blockers not really knowing what they are supposed to do.

AI was something I preferred in 2k Football. Players played more naturally without having to feel aided like in Madden. With Madden there is too much scripting involved to make CPU play naturally. Especially in blocking. Besides the dice Rolls and Insta-shed, it feels CPU lines act in unison. Either a complete win or complete loss. Either defense gets Insta-shed and stops play, or the Red Sea parts and you can drive a bus between the blocking.

With ever 2k plans to do, hopefully it takes inspiration from 2k8 & 2k5 gameplay and doesn't go full arcade

[Cardot]

Re: 2k/Visual Concepts - Evolution of the Running Game?

With ever 2k plans to do, hopefully it takes inspiration from 2k8 & 2k5 gameplay and doesn't go full arcade

I am not so sure they could even do an arcade game? Even if it is unrealistic, any game that has tackling, passing, kicking, touch downs etc could be interpreted as "Simulating" the NFL. They might be limited to a mobile card trading game? Not what I am hoping for, but keeping my expectations in check.

[Ev14]

Re: 2k/Visual Concepts - Evolution of the Running Game?

We've been robbed simple as that, APF 2K8 is unequivocally the best gameplay we've ever seen. It pains me to think of where even just 2K9-14 would have been, let alone 2K20.

Clyde Edwards-Helaire vision and lateral agility is exceptional. In APF 2K8 you can actually utilize those traits because football is respected.

One example the play "WEAK OUTSIDE ZONE CUTBACK" if the user sees the defensive front is susceptible to the Outside Zone you run Outside, if not you can utilize the Cutback animation and find the hole.

The game has G, TEX, BOB, BOSS Blocks, etc. I can't emphasize it enough we've been robbed of fundamental football knowledge based gameplay.

[illwill10]

Re: 2k/Visual Concepts - Evolution of the Running Game?

I am not so sure they could even do an arcade game? Even if it is unrealistic, any game that has tackling, passing, kicking, touch downs etc could be interpreted as "Simulating" the NFL. They might be limited to a mobile card trading game? Not what I am hoping for, but keeping my expectations in check.

I definitely got my expectations in check. Mainly because we have NO idea of what 2k is able to do. Non-simulation is such a broad term. There's so many scenarios we have to consider. First gameplay, Are we talking about not simulating "traditional" 11-on-11 football?. But at same time, I don't consider Arcade-centered gameplay enough for it to be considered non-simulation. Madden has an Arcade setting, so Madden can claim that is still considered simulation. Then, we have to consider if it also includes the way games are presented. Will they be able to use stadium assets? Maybe if they do a NFL Street style venues, maybe they could get away with traditional football. Will they be able to use Player's likenesses? It should be assumed that even if it's just a mobile card game, they would need player likeness. But they haven't signed a deal with NFLPA yet in the month and half since the NFL partnership was announced. Then we have to also consider could they have a Franchise mode. Having a traditionally NFL season mode would be considered simulation. If you are able to do normal off the field stuff like scout, draft, sign players, gameplan, and practice, that definitely would be considered Simulation. Then finally we have to consider the current EA deal. The EA deal is up after 2021 season, so Feburary 2022. All deals decisions are decided upon in advance of expiration. So by end of 2021, we should have an idea if EA will continue to have exclusive sim license. Will NFL just renew exclusive license promptly regardless of how 2k does? Does NFL already have mind made up that they will open up license after EA's expire? Or will NFL give 2k a quick wait and see window after 1st release to decide if they should open license up? But that seems unlikely because a few months window doesn't seem like enough time to decide. If it is something like NFL Playgrounds, that won't sell.

I definitely think we are getting a mobile card game as one of the "multiple" games. And definitely think 2k will add microtransactions. I think we hear about the partnership at the IGN E3-esque digital event in June. We should at least hear what the game will be then. Even though the game(s) won't release until around summer 2021, I don't see them waiting until during NFL season or after to reveal info. They have to get hype train going early as possible. Even though many people are fed up with Madden, it still has been 13 years since last football release for 2k. And since most likely most public events will be cancelled throughout summer and early fall, I see the 2k IGN digital event where they finally reveal what they are planing.

[illwill10]

Re: 2k/Visual Concepts - Evolution of the Running Game?

We've been robbed simple as that, APF 2K8 is unequivocally the best gameplay we've ever seen. It pains me to think of where even just 2K9-14 would have been, let alone 2K20.

Clyde Edwards-Helaire vision and lateral agility is exceptional. In APF 2K8 you can actually utilize those traits because football is respected.

One example the play "WEAK OUTSIDE ZONE CUTBACK" if the user sees the defensive front is susceptible to the Outside Zone you run Outside, if not you can utilize the Cutback animation and find the hole.

The game has G, TEX, BOB, BOSS Blocks, etc. I can't emphasize it enough we've been robbed of fundamental football knowledge based gameplay.

I wouldn't say robbed because 2k chose to not continue with APF. I remember seeing the post from the dev about not developing a 2k9 game. Despite APF having arguably the best gameplay, it sold poorly. 2k does not tolerate poor sales. Around that time, 2k was starting to put all eggs in the NBA 2k basket. They dropped MLB even though they had the exclusive third party license. Also dropped NHL, Top Spin. With WWE 2k21 being cancelled this year, it is just NBA and Golf Club. Say what you want about EA, but they do embrace the "Sports". They have FIFA, Madden, NHL. If NBA Live can last after only having 5 releases this past decade, that shows that EA has patience and we don't know if They will release a game this year. If it wasn't for the NIL issues, they would be developing college games. With 2k, it's mainly just NBA 2k. I see this partnership as a way for them to expand outside of NBA since it has been sole focus the past decade

The main problem with APF was the legend approach. With not being able to have NFL players, they felt NFL legends were the next best option. But there were 2 main problems with that was the legends could only be marketed so much and limited things/hard to expand off of. Legends are marketable. But outside of hardcore football fans, most people didn't know non-Gold players. I was 15 when the game came out, I didn't know most of the non-Gold players. Then the legend approach limits how the game could be developed. If they would have done a 2k9, they would've just added more legends. But still couldn't have a Franchise with legends. How would they make sure they age correctly since the players are their prime versions. Then how would you make them regress/progress naturally without taking away from Legend appeal. You can't have a normal offseason with Legends.

I would have a bought a generic roster APF if it had a deep franchise mode, but many want the NFL shield.

[Kanobi]

Re: 2k/Visual Concepts - Evolution of the Running Game?

Dude is underrated but definitely got more JUKES than a ol' school jukebox. . . I would love to see his run style implemented in the upcoming 2K series but if there are NO NFL teams, player likeness or 11 on 11 play what's the point [emoji848]

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2k has or will have use of the NFL license so there will be NFL teams. Use of players is a different story as is what exactly the game is going to look/play like. Nonetheless, if there are player animations/interactions then one could reasonably assume they will surpass anything we've seen to date...given how far advanced they were 13-15 years ago in comparison to the competition.

[Cardot]

Re: 2k/Visual Concepts - Evolution of the Running Game?

Nonetheless, if there are player animations/interactions then one could reasonably assume they will surpass anything we've seen to date...given how far advanced they were 13-15 years ago in comparison to the competition.

I agree....which I why am concerned the "simulation" contract language might prevent this scenario. I would think that EA would have made sure their agreement with the NFL would prevent any chance of being shown up by the competition....in any aspect/element of the sport. So even if 2K put out some mini-games, I don't think EA would want twitter lighting up with "Wow, the tackling is much more realistic that Madden!! 2K needs to put out a full game". The EA lawyers are too smart for that.

Again, I hope I am wrong. I would be interested in any type of football action. 7x7 or arcady or tecmo-ish. Whatever. But I wouldn't be into a mobile card game or NFL Monopoly.

[Kanobi]

Re: 2k/Visual Concepts - Evolution of the Running Game?

I am not so sure they could even do an arcade game? Even if it is unrealistic, any game that has tackling, passing, kicking, touch downs etc could be interpreted as "Simulating" the NFL.

Well that would simply be simulating fundamental football including 11 on 11 at any level as these things existed before the NFL. However, things specific to the NFL such as particular rules, roster size, offseason schedule, etc is where I think the line is drawn in terms of the non-sim restriction though I certainly could be wrong.

[kehlis]

Re: 2k/Visual Concepts - Evolution of the Running Game?

Well that would simply be simulating fundamental football including 11 on 11 at any level as these things existed before the NFL. However, things specific to the NFL such as particular rules, roster size, offseason schedule, etc is where I think the line is drawn in terms of the non-sim restriction though I certainly could be wrong.

You think the NFL agreed to give them a share of the NFL license only to tell them they can't replicate anything specific to the NFL?

[Kanobi]

Re: 2k/Visual Concepts - Evolution of the Running Game?

You think the NFL agreed to give them a share of the NFL license only to tell them they can't replicate anything specific to the NFL?

No, my response was moreso in regards to EA's agreement and the "non-sim" stipulation.

[daflyboys]

Re: 2k/Visual Concepts - Evolution of the Running Game?

So, something like this?

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/YD1XUCcQeHQ" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Kanobi]

Re: 2k/Visual Concepts - Evolution of the Running Game?

A couple of my fav short runs from an edited APF2k8 roster file ...just beautiful! I couldn't fathom how these would look on a current gen console, let alone next-gen...

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/tqYOhMF9BZw" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/dBv_AWMJljY" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[illwill10]

Re: 2k/Visual Concepts - Evolution of the Running Game?

So, something like this?

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/YD1XUCcQeHQ" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

A couple of my fav short runs from an edited APF2k8 roster file ...just beautiful! I couldn't fathom how these would look on a current gen console, let alone next-gen...

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/tqYOhMF9BZw" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/dBv_AWMJljY" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

That's what I liked about 2k5/2k8. You see the momentum, you appropriate tackling animation, the AI blocking. You see the defenders taking the appropriate angles and tackle animations based on both carrier and defender location and momentum. The AI OL blocks with intent and you see them go up field looking for someone else to block. In the vid, you see the WR block the DB out of the play and falls to his knees blocking.

That's what I want to see next gen. The animation quality, superior CPU AI, physics/momentum based gameplay, and matchups matters