War on Pitchers...It may be VERY real

[SPTO]

So I was listening to a radio show here just a while ago and a stunning stat was revealed, by the end of this week we'll have seen 22 pitchers having Tommy John surgery. The number of TJ surgeries at this time last year?

7

What the heck is going on?!?! I know we've discussed this topic off and on in various threads but I thought i'd make this one for us to discuss why exactly is this happening and what, if anything baseball can do. I mean, look at the Rays. They're a team that's lauded for never having pitchers with TJ surgery and now Matt Moore looks to be down for the count.

So what do you guys think?

[Jr.]

Re: War on Pitchers...It may be VERY real

I think it's a combination of biomechanics and the increased strength training that pitchers have adopted the last 15 years or so. Guys are throwing harder than ever and the elbow and shoulder capsule can only take so much torque and flexion.

I don't know if it can get any better. Guys won't be willing to sacrifice their velocity because that's what has gotten them to the highest levels. Some of the things that pitchers do to increase velocity are really bad for shoulder joints and elbow ligaments, but it's a sacrifice all of them are willing to make in order to gain 2-3 mph and sharper movement.

[Jr.]

Re: War on Pitchers...It may be VERY real

A good article from Sports Illustrated on this topic:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/mlb/news/20140415/tommy-john-surgery-high-school-pitchers-jameson-taillon/?eref=sihp

It brings up a great point about the travel/showcase nature of youth baseball, which I've become very familiar with as a college coach. I don't know that this will change. Parents who think their kids should play college baseball will continue to pay thousands of dollars for their kids to participate on travel teams and play in tournaments every weekend from July to November. And the kids will continue to want to play in order to get seen.

As a coach, these tournaments are a blessing because you get to see 200+ players in a weekend. It makes recruiting much more cost and time efficient, which every scout/college coach wants.

It's curious to note the difference between the frequency of American pitchers having surgery and Latin pitchers. Out of the 20 this year, Bruce Rondon is the only player from Latin America.

All of this combined with kids simply throwing harder at younger ages makes for a lot of ticking time bombs.

[ProStylez]

Tommy John

It's being reported that Marlins phenom Jose Fernandez will be undergoing season ending Tommy John surgery which brings me to this question.....WTF?

I dont understand, maybe someone can help.

Pitchers years ago really had no limit to innings pitched, they were not under the microscope when it came to pitch counts etc yet it seemed pitchers reamined for the most part....healthy. These days everyone is on a pitch count watch or they need X amount of days rest....blah,blah,blah.....yet Tommy John surgery is suddenly becoming as routine as logging on the this website daily. Is there any explanation for the amount of players going down suddenly and more and more often each year? It also strikes me that the majority of these pitchers are very young, going down in their first few seasons in the league.
Would it have anything to do with more players weight training now compared to years ago....maybe that adds stress to the pitching elbow or ligaments? Or should that in reality make them stronger?
I'm really confused by this.......anyone??

[Jr.]

Re: Tommy John

http://www.operationsports.com/forum...very-real.html

Some info in that thread

[TheNumber35]

Re: Tommy John

It's being reported that Marlins phenom Jose Fernandez will be undergoing season ending Tommy John surgery which brings me to this question.....WTF?

I dont understand, maybe someone can help.

Pitchers years ago really had no limit to innings pitched, they were not under the microscope when it came to pitch counts etc yet it seemed pitchers reamined for the most part....healthy. These days everyone is on a pitch count watch or they need X amount of days rest....blah,blah,blah.....yet Tommy John surgery is suddenly becoming as routine as logging on the this website daily. Is there any explanation for the amount of players going down suddenly and more and more often each year? It also strikes me that the majority of these pitchers are very young, going down in their first few seasons in the league.
Would it have anything to do with more players weight training now compared to years ago....maybe that adds stress to the pitching elbow or ligaments? Or should that in reality make them stronger?
I'm really confused by this.......anyone??

I have no empirical data to confirm this theory, but is it at all possible that there were just as many serious arm injuries before, but there wasn't as much access to this procedure and they just ended careers instead?

A quick wiki search says it was first performed in 1974, and I have to imagine that there were a lot of risks associated with it early on that would deter guys from doing the procedure. Now there are actually people who report feeling stronger after having this surgery. Just a thought.

Another thought is the velocity that pitchers are featuring now. Again, no empirical data to support this but it seems like everyone and their mother is throwing 95+ nowadays...I don't seem to remember that being the case except for that rare arm talent/fireballers 15+ years ago. But throwing a baseball is already a violent motion that the human arm doesn't exactly love you for performing. Add on an increase in velocity and the increased specialization of athletes now, and that's a lot of wear and tear on an arm by age 22-23.

[ProStylez]

Re: Tommy John

We are losing a lot of big names early in their careers, granted they come back and maybe stronger but can you imagine if they didn't! Strausberg, Fernandez, Harvey etc....
I also have thought ACL surgeries are the norm now with players being bigger, faster, stronger maybe the Tommy John is the equivalent of an ACL surgery for a basketball/football player?
I guess it could have a lot do do with arm motion or violent deliveries since a pitcher like Mark Buehrle can pitch years with no problem but also by throwing at a lesser speed.

[KMRblue1027]

Re: Tommy John

We are losing a lot of big names early in their careers, granted they come back and maybe stronger but can you imagine if they didn't! Strausberg, Fernandez, Harvey etc....
I also have thought ACL surgeries are the norm now with players being bigger, faster, stronger maybe the Tommy John is the equivalent of an ACL surgery for a basketball/football player?
I guess it could have a lot do do with arm motion or violent deliveries since a pitcher like Mark Buehrle can pitch years with no problem but also by throwing at a lesser speed.

I think Buehrle and Lee are good examples of how pitching has changed. These guys live on pin point control and fooling hitters with offspeed stuff, a huge amount of pitchers now just blow by hitters due to the massive rise in fastball velocity even in just a few years (We've seen a 2+ MPH increase in the Pitch F/X era alone). It seems control pitchers may be less likely to require season ending surgery, my guess is due more polished and constant mechanics.

[Steven78]

Re: Tommy John

My theory is that in this day and age these guys are throwing breaking pitches too young, before high school, when ligaments are still rapidly growing.

[TheMatrix31]

Re: Tommy John

Merged both threads.

[Watson]

Re: Tommy John

My theory is that in this day and age these guys are throwing breaking pitches too young, before high school, when ligaments are still rapidly growing.

There are 14 year old kids who are playing tournament ball that have absolutely no idea what they're doing when they're throwing a curve (arguably the most disruptive pitch you can throw) and just mimicking what they've seen older people do.

[Jr.]

Re: Tommy John

There are 14 year old kids who are playing tournament ball that have absolutely no idea what they're doing when they're throwing a curve (arguably the most disruptive pitch you can throw) and just mimicking what they've seen older people do.

They've actually done biomechanical studies that show that throwing a breaking ball is no more damaging of an action than throwing a fastball. The damage often comes when a kid at that age has a good breaking pitch, and ends up throwing more often because he's successful, thereby increasing the number of pitches the kid throws and reducing his recovery time.

[DieHardYankee26]

Re: War on Pitchers...It may be VERY real

I don't know anything about the science behind it, but I hope they can figure this out. Losing Fernandez and Harvey like this just hurts as a fan of the game.

Side note, anything that can be done for younger kids? My little brother is in middle school and I have no idea if he'll ever go anywhere with it but he plays and at the age this is happening to guys it seems like it could be a problem just for guys that pitch into college.

[19]

Re: War on Pitchers...It may be VERY real

Jose Cisnero to undergo Tommy John. What is that 19 now?

http://www.csnhouston.com/astros/astros-rhp-jose-cisnero-have-tommy-john-surgery

[Jr.]

Re: War on Pitchers...It may be VERY real

I don't know anything about the science behind it, but I hope they can figure this out. Losing Fernandez and Harvey like this just hurts as a fan of the game.

Side note, anything that can be done for younger kids? My little brother is in middle school and I have no idea if he'll ever go anywhere with it but he plays and at the age this is happening to guys it seems like it could be a problem just for guys that pitch into college.

Make sure he takes some time off and plays other sports. Most kinesiologists and orthopedic surgeons suggest around 3 months off per year from rigorous throwing, especially for kids under 18 years old. Besides, playing other sports is just good for any kid's physical and athletic development.

A lot of smart people are starting to think these injuries are inevitable due to overuse many of the pitchers coming up these days experienced as youth.