2014 Western Conference Finals: #1 San Antonio Spurs vs. #2 Oklahoma City Thunder

[Pokes404]

Quote: Originally Posted by bakan723

Yea, the game is too hard to officiate for the refs (obviously) But I don't agree with the 'always evening out' line. I mean, what's the chances of that happening, everything ending up equal at the end ? Like ZERO.

Yeah, I didn't mean things "even out" like they end up being completely even on both sides. That's almost impossible. One team is usually the beneficiary a few few extra calls in their favor (usually the home team). I just meant that you rarely see a team getting hammered by bad officiating. Typically, the impact of missed/bad calls in one team's favor pales in comparison to the impact of the players on the floor.

That's what I meant by "... that stuff will even out and the players are the ones who are going to decide it."

*EDIT* Again, this is talking generally. There are absolutely specific instances where teams just flat out got screwed. I'm just saying that those cases are pretty rare. With as difficult as basketball is to officiate, I think the refs do pretty well for the most part.

[ojandpizza]

@Pokes404

Just to fill you in on the thought process a few of us have had around here during the season.. Most of us aren't necessarily mad that OKC is getting calls, or really have a problem/biased against OKC..

It's more so with how the refs have been throughout the year, rewarding lots of fouls to jump shooters, and flops, and things of that nature, rather than giving players fouls who are trying to play through the contact and doing the right thing instead of tricking or baiting the refs into the foul.

The only reason OKC gets brought up so often is because they've been one of the better examples of teams who have been doing things like that and the refs constantly making those types of calls. Again it's nothing in particular against OKC, I don't think anyone here hates or has anything against OKC. They just so happen to be one of the more prominent teams who benefit from the type of calls we don't like, they get a lot of coverage so it's exposed more, Durant led the league in free throws, they just became the easy target. So when something ref related goes OKC's way we tend to jump on it because it's been happening throughout the year, it's an easy target for us because it keeps repeating..

With all that said, I don't think the last game was officiated badly.. Even at the point when OKC had taken all those free throws the foul count was actually even. OKC was doing a better job of attacking, and they don't have a great offensive scheme so I have no problem with Brooks saying whatever he said about free throws being a big part of their game. They are a great free throw shooting team, they have two of the hardest players in the league to guard, it makes sense for them to have that mindset. But the refs consistency had just become an annoyance, and mostly with consistency. But as far as the last game, I don't think the officiating was that bad just watching it, though the box score makes it look kinda rough.. It wasn't by any means perfect but better than probably any game between OKC and LAC.

I did think it was hilarious though when the commentator, I can remember who maybe Breen?, had brought up during the game something about how "even though OKC shot 20 free throws this quarter the foul count is even right now, so for those who see this might think OKC was being favored but it really hasn't been that way" - something along those lines it was just funny to hear it. I wouldn't at all be surprised if someone hadn't told him to say that knowing there was so many people who have been complaining about calls OKC gets for at least a month now.


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[ojandpizza]

Just to give an example of one of the iffy things that annoy me, and I'm sure some others..

Durant is averaging 9 free throw attempts per game in the playoffs. Which isn't that bad, I think it's actually less than his season average.. But the problem is he's taking so many jump shots and still getting the calls and number a free throws that people who attack the rim and play inside are.

Not saying Durant never drives, or never puts himself in position to get the foul calls.. But a quick look at his shooting stats, 68% of his 22 shots per game are from 10 feet and farther, with his average shot being 15 feet from the basket.. It just doesn't make sense for a guy who does nearly 70 percent of his scoring 10+ feet away from the goal to to have nearly as many free throw attempts per game as Dwight Howard, and more than guys like Blake Griffin.


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[Pokes404]

Quote: Originally Posted by ojandpizza

@Pokes404 Just to fill you in on the thought process a few of us have had around here during the season.. Most of us aren't necessarily mad that OKC is getting calls, or really have a problem/biased against OKC.. It's more so with how the refs have been throughout the year, rewarding lots of fouls to jump shooters, and flops, and things of that nature, rather than giving players fouls who are trying to play through the contact and doing the right thing instead of tricking or baiting the refs into the foul. The only reason OKC gets brought up so often is because they've been one of the better examples of teams who have been doing things like that and the refs constantly making those types of calls. Again it's nothing in particular against OKC, I don't think anyone here hates or has anything against OKC. They just so happen to be one of the more prominent teams who benefit from the type of calls we don't like, they get a lot of coverage so it's exposed more, Durant led the league in free throws, they just became the easy target. So when something ref related goes OKC's way we tend to jump on it because it's been happening throughout the year, it's an easy target for us because it keeps repeating.. With all that said, I don't think the last game was officiated badly.. Even at the point when OKC had taken all those free throws the foul count was actually even. OKC was doing a better job of attacking, and they don't have a great offensive scheme so I have no problem with Brooks saying whatever he said about free throws being a big part of their game. They are a great free throw shooting team, they have two of the hardest players in the league to guard, it makes sense for them to have that mindset. But the refs consistency had just become an annoyance, and mostly with consistency. But as far as the last game, I don't think the officiating was that bad just watching it, though the box score makes it look kinda rough.. It wasn't by any means perfect but better than probably any game between OKC and LAC. I did think it was hilarious though when the commentator, I can remember who maybe Breen?, had brought up during the game something about how "even though OKC shot 20 free throws this quarter the foul count is even right now, so for those who see this might think OKC was being favored but it really hasn't been that way" - something along those lines it was just funny to hear it. I wouldn't at all be surprised if someone hadn't told him to say that knowing there was so many people who have been complaining about calls OKC gets for at least a month now. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yeah, I feel people on the fouls. I think I'm probably one of the few who doesn't mind the refs calling things a little closer. To me, basketball is a skill-based game. I don't want it to turn into the European League, but some of the ridiculously physical teams of the past (the Detroit Bad Boys being an obvious example) that tried to turn the game into football, I just don't like that style of play either. I don't want every little touch or bump to be a foul, but I also don't want to see guys grabbing shooters trying to come off screens and bodying guys that are attacking the rim.

It's a really difficult balance to strike for the officials though. I really think they do pretty well for the most part, but I understand the frustration when a guy goes strong and gets nothing while another guy flops on the floor and gets sent to the line. These refs are just human though, and if you've ever been court-side at an NBA game, you know how fast things are moving down there. It's a difficult game to call, and the fact that they get it right more times than not is pretty amazing.

I actually laughed at that part too. I was envisioning a mob of Spurs fans with torches and pitchforks outside the league offices at that moment and the announcers trying to calm everyone down. I really think if it hadn't been for the awful "leg kick" call on Mills' 3-pointer, that stretch wouldn't have seemed so ridiculous. The Spurs were playing more passive and taking jumpshots. Meanwhile, the Thunder were playing insanely aggressive. It really didn't feel like that bad of officiating while actually watching the game (I am a Thunder fan though so take that with a grain of salt). But when you're not getting any calls, and then you get a horrible one against you, it makes it feel that much worse.

*EDIT* I forgot about the play where Adams landed on Duncan too. I know Duncan didn't have the ball anymore, but if a guy ever lands on you, it's a foul.

[bakan723]

Durant is one of the best (if not the best…him and Curry) outside shooters in League (that's actually a great scorer also), so guys really try to get up on his jump shot, which is naturally gonna lead to more fouls when a good offensive player like KD can use their aggressiveness against them.

[Pokes404]

Quote: Originally Posted by ojandpizza

Just to give an example of one of the iffy things that annoy me, and I'm sure some others.. Durant is averaging 9 free throw attempts per game in the playoffs. Which isn't that bad, I think it's actually less than his season average.. But the problem is he's taking so many jump shots and still getting the calls and number a free throws that people who attack the rim and play inside are. Not saying Durant never drives, or never puts himself in position to get the foul calls.. But a quick look at his shooting stats, 68% of his 22 shots per game are from 10 feet and farther, with his average shot being 15 feet from the basket.. It just doesn't make sense for a guy who does nearly 70 percent of his scoring 10+ feet away from the goal to to have nearly as many free throw attempts per game as Dwight Howard, and more than guys like Blake Griffin. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Do those 22 shot attempts account for shots where he was fouled though? If you're fouled on a shot and miss, it isn't counted in the stat sheet. So what this stat could be saying is that with a high percentage of shots outside of 10 feet, coupled with a high number of free throw attempts, it could be showing that when Durant gets inside of 10 feet he often gets fouled. Because like you said, you don't tend to get many foul calls on jumpshots.

Now, if those 22 shot attempts do account for all attempts, even when fouled, that means that 15 of the 22 are from 10 feet and further. So if he's fouled on 4.5 of the 7 attempts inside of 10 feet, that adds up to 9 free throws. And it would actually be less because he shoots any 3-in-the-key/technical free throws for us, can go to the line off a foul on the floor in bonus situations, and often has the ball in his hands in any late-game situations where teams have to intentionally foul.

I hate making up numbers, but he really would probably only need to be fouled on 3.5-4 of those 7 opportunities per game to reach 9 ft attempts. So roughly half the time he gets near the rim. And again, that's only if that 22 shots per game stat is including shots where he was fouled.

[ojandpizza]

No, if you're fouled and miss the shot it's doesn't count towards your shot attempts, which is why what I posted doesn't tell the whole story but was more so just to show that a player who primarily plays a good ways away from the basket led the league in free throws. And is among the top 3-5 in the playoffs.

Again it's nothing against Durant, but the way these officials call certain aspects of the game. And it's not just Durant by any means, he's just one of the easier ones to look to as the example because he's gotten really good at understand which plays the refs will give him the foul on.




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[23]

Quote: Originally Posted by ojandpizza

No, if you're fouled and miss the shot it's doesn't count towards your shot attempts, which is why what I posted doesn't tell the whole story but was more so just to show that a player who primarily plays a good ways away from the basket led the league in free throws. And is among the top 3-5 in the playoffs. Again it's nothing against Durant, but the way these officials call certain aspects of the game. And it's not just Durant by any means, he's just one of the easier ones to look to as the example because he's gotten really good at understand which plays the refs will give him the foul on. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Man you're sugar coating the crap out of your posts because Durant gets all kinds of calls no one else gets.

Especially that rip through crap. Phil Jackson was calling this stuff out long time ago, so its nothing new. Its also nothing new that these refs favor certain players.

Its ironic that Paul George was complaining about FTs last night but LeBron only had 4. You know good and well Durant would've had an upwards of 10 or more.