2016-17 NBA MVP

[ggsimmonds]

Quote: Originally Posted by vtcha

Isaiah should really be part of this list. Currently hold the #1 seed in the East. #3 in scoring average. 2-4 record when he doesn't play.

He is having a great year and giving all the sub six foot guys out there some hope, but no, you haven't sold me on adding him into the conversation.

[BleacherBum2310]

IT2 really doesn't deserve consideration he's elite on O but his playmaking isn't as good as these guys and his D is that bad though I will say Westbrook has also been awful on that end as well not IT2 bad but still. I still love the guy though.

One thing I find interesting is how we talk about specifically their teammates in regards to Westbrook and Harden. now Westbrook has trash teammates and Harden has way more help but Before the season Dipo/Adams > Anderson/Gordon. Before the season no one was going oh man Anderson/Gordon Houston making some serious moves they were going lol oh man Houston is going to give up 130 points a game. But Harden is maximizing their talents. Just interesting.

[ojandpizza]

Quote: Originally Posted by wwharton

1. ) If a team isn't winning how valuable is the player? Especially in basketball 2.) Considering that, it makes no sense to introduce EVEN MORE variables for situations focused on the ABSENCE of these players. Talking about what a team will look like if Harden/Westbrook is NOT playing can't be analyzed by their actual skills.

1.) I think my issue is, we aren't discussion a player who's team "isn't winning". If any of these guys weren't winning they wouldn't be in the discussion.

I agree that typically a player who finishes 5th or 6th in the seeding at years end shouldn't win the award. But this hasn't exactly been a typical season. And with most lists being Harden/Westbrook with the others seemingly behind them, we are already breaking that typical mold for the voting process just by narrowing it to those two.

Harden is not a one seed, he's not a two seed, regardless of if OKC finishes 5th or 6th literally the only advantage Harden has over Westbrook is home court in the first round. Only the first round. That's it. So in that sense, the total in the win column means extremely little in terms of how much percentage you would want to place on wins. Win number in the grand scheme of things means zero in terms of how well you've set yourself up for the playoffs. All that matters is the seeding. So whether it's 2 wins, 5 wins, 8 wins, 10 wins, at the end of the day it's still a variable that doesn't change anything.

2.) Their skills aren't hardly being considered as a main voting point in picking the MVP or the year by year results would be more heavily populated with who the actual best player is. That is often not the case, probably more so than it is if we're being realistic. If that was so then we would have Jordan with 8 or more, Shaq with more than 1, and LeBron with double what he has.

The NBA MVP used to be defined as the player who contributed the most value to his teams success. I'm not sure if that's changed since I can no longer find the leagues definition of it, but a players ability to be replaced can absolutely shed some light on how valuable a player is to their teams success.

That was basically the driving force in why Nash won his MVP awards. He wasn't the best player in the league, they didn't have the best record in the league (at least that 2nd year not sure about the 1st). He was MVP because there wasn't another player in the world who could run their strategy at the level that Nash did. He made them go.

[ProfessaPackMan]

Quote:

Before the season Dipo/Adams > Anderson/Gordon

Anybody would've agreed with this statement before the season. Whose calling them garbage now though?

Quote:

Before the season no one was going oh man Anderson/Gordon Houston making some serious moves they were going lol oh man Houston is going to give up 130 points a game.

I don't understand this thought process.

They gave $133 Mil to 2 guys who have struggled to stay healthy the last few years, so why would they get showered with praise for that at the time? People were knocking the contracts(like they were with every signing this past offseason)not how they would fit Basketball wise, which most thought was actually a good fit for the system they would be running.

[ojandpizza]

Quote: Originally Posted by BleacherBum2310

IT2 really doesn't deserve consideration he's elite on O but his playmaking isn't as good as these guys and his D is that bad though I will say Westbrook has also been awful on that end as well not IT2 bad but still. I still love the guy though. One thing I find interesting is how we talk about specifically their teammates in regards to Westbrook and Harden. now Westbrook has trash teammates and Harden has way more help but Before the season Dipo/Adams > Anderson/Gordon. Before the season no one was going oh man Anderson/Gordon Houston making some serious moves they were going lol oh man Houston is going to give up 130 points a game. But Harden is maximizing their talents. Just interesting.

Gordon being healthy plays the biggest factor in all of that.

But that probably is still true. In most cases Dipo/Adams > Anderson/Gordon is still true even now. But not for a team that only shoots 3's, those are two of the best supporting cast members in the league in terms of doing what Houston does.

I think on paper you could make the case that they are pretty much equal. Houston is a little deeper, especially after adding Lou, but the top 5-6 guys who play the bulk minutes are pretty close to the same level IMO.

The difference isn't the cast being better/worse, it's that OKC cannot function with Westbrook sitting while Houston can keep themselves afloat. I made the remark once earlier, but often times Westbrook comes back into the game for the final time and digs them out of a hole. It doesn't always result in a win, but I feel like he keeps them in games, wins some games, that they shouldn't even be in. The last game he just played was a good example of that.

And the thing is, knowing that they don't have any shooters and that Westbrook is back on the court for the sole purpose of trying to close the game out, teams are game-planned to basically stop him and only him. And he's still destroying everyone.

[ProfessaPackMan]

Quote:

The difference isn't the cast being better/worse, it's that OKC cannot function with Westbrook sitting while Houston can keep themselves afloat. I made the remark once earlier, but often times Westbrook comes back into the game for the final time and digs them out of a hole. It doesn't always result in a win, but I feel like he keeps them in games, wins some games, that they shouldn't even be in. The last game he just played was a good example of that.

You should clarify that this is different than saying he's playing with garbage because I think people are confusing the two.

Shoot, Lebron is a prime example of this.

[DieHardYankee26]

For the people who say Harden "elevates his teammates" above Russ, do you think that their respective teams are evenly built around their skillset? The Thunder were built around the idea of Russ and KD, then KD left. They just have who they have left. The Rockets are built to a specific identity. I think it's being ignored that Harden is playing in a system more suited to his talents than Russ who just does everything and carries the squad with him.

[BleacherBum2310]

Quote: Originally Posted by ProfessaPackMan

Anybody would've agreed with this statement before the season. Whose calling them garbage now though? I don't understand this thought process. They gave $133 Mil to 2 guys who have struggled to stay healthy the last few years, so why would they get showered with praise for that at the time? People were knocking the contracts(like they were with every signing this past offseason)not how they would fit Basketball wise, which most thought was actually a good fit for the system they would be running.

maybe on here people thought that but or maybe I read too much into basketball twitter but there was alot more negative reaction to the Anderson/Gordon signings. other that the stats argument alot of the RWB story has been how he's been carrying this bad roster to the 5th/6 seed I mean hasn't that been part of the narrative.