Brady, P.Manning or Roethlisberger?

[wwharton]

Quote: Originally Posted by NovaStar

What up Wharton, great points. I would add that you don't have to guestimate it, you base it on frequency and or circumstance. When the moment is presented to any given player to decide a contest what have they done? Brady is known for 3 SB wins by taking his team down the final drive for SB game winning fg's, clutch. Vinitiari is known for making 3 SB game winning fg's, plus one in driving snow, clutch. Ben is known for driving his team down for the last drive of the game making great escape after great escape to win a SB, clutch. Ben has also made throws on what 3 and 19 to seal victories in the playoffs to close games out. Peyton, miraculous comeback in the playoffs against the Pats, clutch, many last minute drives in the regular season. Part of any clutch discussions is the ability or fortune of the player to be placed in the situation, Jordan is known for being clutch because when placed in game winning situations he hit the shot enough to warrant the recognition. Are we then to question what Drexler might have done if placed in the same situation? no. All that is required is that the person discussed was placed in the situation/moment and performed. Clutch is like obscenity, you can't define it but you know it when you see it.

In these type of arguments you CAN'T guestimate OR go based only on performance unless you can cancel out certain variables which is impossible. If a player is given more opportunities then we have more to base our opinion on. Evaluating Ben BY HIMSELF, he's got enough to say he's clutch. Comparing him or anyone to others just isn't that easy. As I mentioned before, it's not fair to say Manning isn't clutch without considering missed fgs of drives he put them in range, or defenses giving up scores in a timeframe that most other defenses would be able to maintain a lead. In the same sense we can't decide that players that have never been in the situation are any less clutch just bc their team hasn't been good enough to give the same number of opportunities.

When comparing players we have to look at the entire body of work, INCLUDING what they did with opportunities to prove they were clutch... and the only real way of looking at those cases is to look at what the rest of the team did also. There are people calling for Flacco's head after the last Ravens/Steelers game. Is it bc of the INT he threw in the 3rd qtr (could be an example of folding under pressure)? No, it's more people ignoring the TD drop by Boldin and 1st down drop by Housh late in the "clutch" portion of the game. Another example is yesterday's game. Ben had a chance to add to his "clutch" resume, but only bc the Steelers D hung tough after being down 21-3 due more bc of turnovers than their bad play. If they were an average D, after 3 turnovers (one returned for a TD) the game probably would've been a blow out bc the passing game wasn't doing much until later in the game and they wouldn't have been able to stick to the run as much.

There's so much that needs to be considered. Clutch DEFINITELY exists, and I'd have to question whether anyone has played organized sports who doesn't understand the feeling that challenges your "clutch-ness". It just can't really be used to compare players unless we're talking extremes (and the guys we're talking about here are all on the higher end).

Quote: Originally Posted by NovaStar

Yeah, he was a bad player, or not as good as other pro wr's (don't want to ever call a guy a bad player). Good or bad, we can agree that he made a clutch play, the point is if he continously made plays like that even when his statline is bad, he would be known as a clutch player, for example. If he were to have played in 3 playoff games and in those games had 1 catch per game but each one of those catches came in the 4th qtr, was for 30yrds on 3rd or 4th down, within the final two minutes that help decide the game, you would say "that guy is clutch!" What Ben does is equavilent to that. He might not have the best stats from game to game, qtr to qtr, but when the game is on the line he has done the incredible, consistently. "In the moment" is the only thing that matters if it contributes to winning the game. If I throw 4 int's in the first half, and 2 in the 3rd qtr, yet I throw to td's on 4th down in the final 3min of the game, and my team wins, which matters more? My overall game play, or the plays I made when the moment/pressure, presented itself?

Based on my previous reply, I just wanted to add that when making predictions we'd have to also assume that Ben will be in a clutch situation to compare him to the likes of Brady and Manning imo. If the question is which would you pick in a tight game late in the 4th qtr then I think he belongs in the conversation. Going into a brand new game, based on his consistency across all 4 qtrs and not knowing how effective the D will be, I have to go with the players that put up more consistent stats throughout the game AND have proven clutch when the time comes. I think there's a large gap between Ben and Brady/Manning in these situations.

But again, I don't know why that makes people so defensive. Brady/Manning may go down as 1a and 1b in HISTORY. Ben still has a chance to prove he belongs in that type of Elite group but it's not really a knock to say I don't think Ben deserves to be mentioned with the best QBs in NFL history. He deserves credit for all the things he HAS done, but we have to consider all the variables if we're going to compare him to others on that level.

[biglen]

Quote: Originally Posted by jeremym480

I don't know about everyone else but, I've never considered Eli a top 5 QB. He's never had a season where he's hasn't thrown double-digit interceptions (well except his rookie year). Also, in his best year his stats are still worse than Rodgers in his worst year. The two aren't even in the same conversation as far as I'm considered. As far as, no one expecting this... Even the majority of OS had GB winning the Super Bowl this year: http://www.operationsports.com/forum...ght=super+bowl

Eli Manning is neck and neck with Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer as the worst QB to ever win a SB.

[kingkilla56]

Quote: Originally Posted by biglen

Eli Manning is neck and neck with Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer as the worst QB to ever win a SB.

Bullet bullet bullet! lol hyperbole for the win!

[kehlis]

Thread has run it's course.