Week 15: New England Patriots(10-3) vs Denver Broncos(8-5)

[goh]

Prater's been clutch. Doesn't make him the best kicker but it's worth something. Look at the other side of it with what happend to the Cowboys.

[wwharton]

And no offense to Broncos fans (you know I've been in your corner and have gone to battle for you guys many times) but the whole "look at the record before and record now" argument is so flawed it's not even funny. Absolutely nothing is equal from week to week. Broncos86 already ran down plenty of good points including the HUGE injuries they were recovering from early in the year. But lets also look at what the teams they've played during the winning streak has had to deal with...

-Miami in the middle of an 0-7 start
-Oakland in Palmer's 1st start and without their best player
-KC without their best offensive and defensive players
-Minnesota without their best player
-Chicago without their best players on offense (Cutler AND Forte)

They were crushed by Detroit and NE and had solid wins against SD and NYJ but a decent team should win every game I listed above. If you want to argue they weren't even a decent team before Tebow started, even if we ignore all the great points listed already lets look at what they did on the field...

-Lost by 3 to Oakland WITH DMC playing like the beast that he is
-Beat a Cincy team currently in the playoff hunt
-Lost by 3 on the road to a Titans team currently in the playoff hunt
-Lost to Greenbay
-Lost by 5 to a schizophrenic San Diego team

Is Tebow the difference in those 3 point loses? Possibly. But even if we say he is, what's that really saying when we're talking 3 point? 5 points? Personally I think the league is made of a few very good teams, a few very bad teams, and a bunch of teams in the middle that can have a record that resembles one or the other depending on consistency, injuries, schedule, luck, etc. Denver has one of those teams. If the season were played from the start with Tebow behind center I don't see their record being much different than it is right now.

I give Tebow, Fox, McGahee and the D a ton of credit because they're able to maintain a level of consistency with an offense said to not work in the NFL and Tebow learning a lot on the fly. But I'm not going to act like he's willing them to win games they aren't supposed to or otherwise wouldn't even be in with another competent QB under center. You can say it can't be explained all you want but it's really not that confusing to me.

And for the record, I defended McDaniel yet said the same thing when his team (lead by Orton) started 6-0 I believe (6-2 definitely). An injury here and shift in strength of schedule there and it all evened out. If their schedule were reversed would people be calling Orton the next great thing? I guess maybe they would, lol.

[Scott812313]

Quote: Originally Posted by Broncos86

It's called leadership and motivation. Kyle Orton is not an inspiring leader. That's not a knock on him, persay, because not everybody can be that type of person. The Broncos are clearly benefiting from the mentality that they're winners, and they're buying into the "can-do" spirit. You both bring up great points. It was the same team, largely, for both Kyle Orton and Tim Tebow. Now, the differences I would point out are that at the beginning of the season, Champ Bailey, Elvis Dumervil and DJ Williams were not 100%. They were all still recovering, and Dumervil was still trying to knock off the rust. Wesley Woodyard filled in very well for Williams, but DJ Williams is an anchor in this defense. And with a thin secondary as it was, Champ Bailey was sorely needed. Then, take into consideration the game plan. At the beginning of the season, the Broncos struggled mightily with running the ball. As the offensive line improved, so did the running game. Tim Tebow comes in, and the Broncos begin leaning on the running game and you now have an asset that is a fundamental of football. Lastly, add in the "can-do" spirit that the locker room shares and some belief that they're winners, and you have a completely different team. Now, for some reason, Scott here wants to take out the Denver defense at the knees just because they had a so-so game against TOM F'in BRADY. I don't want to sit here and write another four paragraphs explaining why his hyperbole approach is flat out wrong, so I won't. I'll just say that, Scott, the Broncos defense is solid. It's not elite, or whatever, but you're trying to make it out to be horrible. When you give Tom Brady the ball THREE TIMES in your own zone, points will be scored. Also, with regard to Matt Prater, I think you need to tone down the criticism on him. He's been a bit snake-bitten earlier this year from the 40-49 range, but he's NOT a terrible kicker at all. I understand you're trying to make a point, but you don't need to take criticism to extremes just to do so. Prater has one of the most powerful legs in the league, and he's been clutch as of late. Tim Tebow IS part of the reason the Broncos are now winning. For starters, they're first in the league in rushing. McGahee will hit 1,000 yards this year, and Tebow is sitting around 600 yards (right next to Cam Newton). That alone makes a huge difference. Secondly, Tebow brings a different mentality to the team. If you've played on a competitive team (football, hockey, etc), then you know that mentality DOES make a difference. I don't care about the idea of "they're professionals, blah blah blah." No, they're human, and we've all heard the talk about locker room mentality. When you believe you're a loser, you will lose (even if you personally are a winner). Tebow has given this team a reason to play hard for 60 minutes. That's what leaders do. It has shown (obviously) in the 4th quarter come backs and timely plays on both sides of the ball. That is what everyone means when they speak of Tebow's "intangibles." Kyle Orton is a fine quarterback, but he obviously cannot rally the troops and light a fire. He was content to throw the ball out of bounds and kick a field goal. The offense needs a leader who will say "no, F it, I'm going to score this touchdown" and just get it done. People fight for those kind of leaders. That's not Kyle Orton. Kyle will do fine in KC right now because he doesn't have to be a leader. He's the newbie, he's not expected to stand up and rally the troops. There are established leaders already. He can just play football, and he's fine when he does that (so long as his protection doesn't break down). So guys, let's end this extremism when it comes to talking about the Broncos, Tim Tebow, and the defense. It's not just one, it's not just the other. It's a slew of factors that have made the Broncos 8-6 and in first place in the AFC West.

I never said Denver's D was bad, I said it was overrated. They are a slightly above average D, in my opinion. Prater, on the other hand, is terrible.

[ProfessaPackMan]

I can't even see how they're overrated.

It's not like people are comparing them with the Ravens' and Steelers' Defenses of the world or saying they're some unstoppable force. They're a good defense but I don't think people have made them out to be anything more than they are though.

I know one thing in that if it had been the Broncos' D that held Tom Brady to 23 pts, we'd ALL be talking about how underrated their Defense is.

[Scott812313]

Quote: Originally Posted by ProfessaPackMan

I can't even see how they're overrated. It's not like people are comparing them with the Ravens' and Steelers' Defenses of the world or saying they're some unstoppable force. They're a good defense but I don't think people have made them out to be anything more than they are though. I know one thing in that if it had been the Broncos' D that held Tom Brady to 23 pts, we'd ALL be talking about how underrated their Defense is.

Dallas and the Giants both held them under 23 and they have garbage defenses. High scoring teams can be shut down by teams that put pressure on the QB. Look at what the Giants did to Brady in the 07 SB and what KC did to Rodgers Sunday. Nobody is a good QB or able to put up points unless the big guys can keep them clean, I don't care if it's Rodgers, Brady, Manning or it's an average QB like Palmer.

[ProfessaPackMan]

Quote:

Dallas and the Giants both held them under 23 and they have garbage defenses

And yet nobody has ever said that Dallas had a great/good defense, same for the Giants(although personally I don't think they're garbage)even before they played NE so I'm still trying to figure out how you came to the conclusion that their D is overrated when nobody has hyped them up to something more than they are.

They're a good solid, Defense. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Scott812313]

Quote: Originally Posted by ProfessaPackMan

And yet nobody has ever said that Dallas had a great/good defense, same for the Giants(although personally I don't think they're garbage)even before they played NE so I'm still trying to figure out how you came to the conclusion that their D is overrated when nobody has hyped them up to something more than they are. They're a good solid, Defense. Nothing more, nothing less.

You seriously don't hear people talk about how good the defense and Prater are? Not being sarcastic, just wondering if you don't watch or listen to much sports, outside of games. People I hear on TV/radio act like the Broncos D is elite and according to Cowherd, Prater is the best kicker in the game.

[wwharton]

Quote: Originally Posted by Scott812313

You seriously don't hear people talk about how good the defense and Prater are? Not being sarcastic, just wondering if you don't watch or listen to much sports, outside of games. People I hear on TV/radio act like the Broncos D is elite and according to Cowherd, Prater is the best kicker in the game.

I watch and listen to sports talk all day and don't hear it... and who takes anything Cowherd says seriously?