Should fighting be banned?

[Money99]

I'm at a crossroads here. I'm not totally against fighting in the NHL but I understand why it should be taken out.
It's true that injuries have soared since the instigator rule came into the league. But if the league is not allowing the tough guys to police the games and cheapshots then the league needs to.

I'll admit that if the NHL really wants to get a strong footprint in the national scene then they have to eliminiate it. But the problem is, NHL hockey has a very strong regional base of fans that adore the fisticuffs. That's a huge gamble for the NHL to make. If you take out fighting you better hope that the national scope increases because if it doesn't you could lose many regional puck heads.

But I have to ask. Of all the people here that are against it, how much hockey do you watch now? Would you really watch more if there was no fighting?
I know my brother, who's against the fights, says that he would. However, he watched quite a bit of hockey in the late 80's and early 90's and there was a lot more fighting then than there is now.

[DGetz]

Quote: Originally Posted by rudyjuly2

That's a bad argument in my book. It's the Don Cherry argument that if you take out fighting, it leads to chippy play where more people get hurt. Why can't you have both? The problem is that the players have long policed themselves through fighting when its a job that belongs to the league in terms of fines and suspensions. Playoff hockey is far better than regular season hockey and there are virtually no fights. Fights are very entertaining but I don't think they have to be an integral part of the sport. Hockey fans love watching it but it only hurts the people who aren't fans that don't want to watch that stuff. If fighting is an integral part of the game that's so fun, how come nodody does it in rec leagues or out on the pond in the winter time? ESPN dropped hockey so the NHL and its diehards need to listen. No matter what Canadians say, most of the teams are in the U.S. and you do have to cater to that market if you want to make more money. The NBA used to suck 30 years ago and had tons of fighting but since the punch (Kermit) they cleaned it up and allowed the skill to shine. Its ratings improved a lot. Hockey needs to do that too. Make Kariya a star again by getting rid of the clutch and grab crap. People may like a good fight but a good game is what makes them a fan.

I agree 100% that league fines and suspensions will have a bigger impact on getting rid of cheap shots than fights. I mean take a guy like Domi or Purinton - those guys fight all the time, so having to deal with one more fight is not a deterrent. But cheap shot a guy and lose 1/4 of your salary because you're suspended, that'll change things; it's going to be real rare that a guy think laying a cheap shot on another player is worth hundreds of thousands of dollars.

I think this carries over to Rec leagues though. I play in one and also do scorekeeping for it so I probobly watch 75-100 Rec league games a year and trust me, the only reason people don't fight is that it results in a game misconduct, which is a series of successive suspensions (1 game, 3 games, 5 games, season) and it's pretty rare people want to sacrifice a missed game (and the monetary cost of it - about $20/game) for a fight.

[woostopalypse]

Quote: Originally Posted by DGetz

I agree 100% that league fines and suspensions will have a bigger impact on getting rid of cheap shots than fights. I mean take a guy like Domi or Purinton - those guys fight all the time, so having to deal with one more fight is not a deterrent. But cheap shot a guy and lose 1/4 of your salary because you're suspended, that'll change things; it's going to be real rare that a guy think laying a cheap shot on another player is worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. I think this carries over to Rec leagues though. I play in one and also do scorekeeping for it so I probobly watch 75-100 Rec league games a year and trust me, the only reason people don't fight is that it results in a game misconduct, which is a series of successive suspensions (1 game, 3 games, 5 games, season) and it's pretty rare people want to sacrifice a missed game (and the monetary cost of it - about $20/game) for a fight.

Why would you need goons if you dont have to worry about cheap shots anymore. Guys like brashear, domi, purington would have no purpose in the NHL if teams didnt have to worry about intimidiation of cheap shots.

The skilled hockey players arent the ones fighting. So NHL should become less about hockey because you want to see a fight for entertainment purposes. If you want to see a fight watch boxing or UFC. I know I watch hockey for hockey not fights.

[RailStone]

Quote: Originally Posted by woostopalypse

Why would you need goons if you dont have to worry about cheap shots anymore. Guys like brashear, domi, purington would have no purpose in the NHL if teams didnt have to worry about intimidiation of cheap shots. The skilled hockey players arent the ones fighting. So NHL should become less about hockey because you want to see a fight for entertainment purposes. If you want to see a fight watch boxing or UFC. I know I watch hockey for hockey not fights.

Exactly. Fighting in any team sport is just plain stupid.

many times there has been a great breakaway, or 2 on 1 chance stop because two goons who score 6 points in 75 games decide to start fighting and ruin the play on the Ice.

[Matteh]

Quote: Originally Posted by woostopalypse

NHL needs a zero tolerance policy. A player should not yell at a ref without geting added penalty time or even tossed out of the game.

I can understand the getting rid of fighting part of your argument, but don't really get this one. This goes on in ALL sports. Should anyone who chirps back at an official be ejected in every sport? I know a lot of football coaches who wouldn't last the game if they were tossed out for yelling at a ref. There is a penalty of unsportsman like conduct for arguing with the ref, but it is in cases where the player doesn't stop and makes a gesture like slamming his stick or the penalty door. There shouldn't be a "zero tolerance" on arguing with the ref.

I'm at the borderline when it comes to fighting. I'm not a big fan of it, but I realize it plays a part. It's been a part of the game and I don't think it should be taken out completely. It's not just "goons who score 1 goal a year" who fight. Anyone happen to catch game 3 of the Stanley Cup Finals in 2004? I don't consider Jarome Iginla and Vincent Lecavalier to be goons. It serves a purpose of firing your team up if the team is having a lackluster effort. I remember a Lightning game a few years ago against the Avs when they were down 3-0. A Lightning player (Dingman or Roy) won a fight and from then on the Lightning took over and won 4-3. A few players said it fired them up and got them out of their lackluster effort.

The good of fighting is when it takes place to fire up a team or to fight a guy who's been messing with your star player. What the league needs to get rid of is when a team is down 7-1 and starts fights because they are frustrated a losing. Calgary developed a reputation of this in the 04 playoffs, which is probably why the rule was put in to place. The skill players will still be skill players with fighting in the game. They will not be skill players if there is obstruction, which is what they are trying to get rid of with the new crackdown.

[woostopalypse]

Quote: Originally Posted by Matteh

I can understand the getting rid of fighting part of your argument, but don't really get this one. This goes on in ALL sports. Should anyone who chirps back at an official be ejected in every sport? I know a lot of football coaches who wouldn't last the game if they were tossed out for yelling at a ref. There is a penalty of unsportsman like conduct for arguing with the ref, but it is in cases where the player doesn't stop and makes a gesture like slamming his stick or the penalty door. There shouldn't be a "zero tolerance" on arguing with the ref.

Yes arguing penalties does go on in all sports. But not the the extent in hockey. When a player gets called for a penalty in hockey. Alot of the time they will get in the refs face and yell at him. In many cases throwing a fit in the penalty box.

In NFL, if you even question a referees call and call him names you can face a fine (happened to mike shanahan just a few weeks ago) In NBA you can get tossed out if you get in the refs face. (ron artest, ben wallace, allen iverson come to mind.) In MLB you will get tossed out if you insult or get in the umpires face.(happens mostly to coaches but one in while you will see it with players too) In Hockey, nothing happens. Every game you will see a player yell at a ref, call him names, face to face without any penalty. NHL needs to send a message that these are the penalties and you will obey them. This happens everygame. IN other sports it happens rarely. Thats why the NHL should take it to zero tolerance more so than other sports.

The problem with the NHL is it has not zero tolerance. If a player cheap shots its only a penalty and at most a 10 game suspension. If the refs and NHL were strict on penalties and reaction for the penalties maybe the NHL wouldnt be known as the sport of goons and cheap shots.

The part that gets me about fighting is there it's staged most of the time and there is no passion involved. Most fights happen late in the game when 1 team is getting blown out so obviously it's because the losing team's player is just pissed at losing and someone (usually a goon) starts some **** because he can't do anything else to contribute so he picks a fight. This is schoolyard **** not something that should happen in pro league. Then when they finish fighting they nod at each other and let go because they've done what they get paid for. There is no intensity and you can see a fight coming a mile away when it's not a close game. It looks more real in pro wrestling.

[DGetz]

Quote: Originally Posted by woostopalypse

Yes arguing penalties does go on in all sports. But not the the extent in hockey. When a player gets called for a penalty in hockey. Alot of the time they will get in the refs face and yell at him. In many cases throwing a fit in the penalty box. In NFL, if you even question a referees call and call him names you can face a fine (happened to mike shanahan just a few weeks ago) In NBA you can get tossed out if you get in the refs face. (ron artest, ben wallace, allen iverson come to mind.) In MLB you will get tossed out if you insult or get in the umpires face.(happens mostly to coaches but one in while you will see it with players too) In Hockey, nothing happens. Every game you will see a player yell at a ref, call him names, face to face without any penalty. NHL needs to send a message that these are the penalties and you will obey them. This happens everygame. IN other sports it happens rarely. Thats why the NHL should take it to zero tolerance more so than other sports. The problem with the NHL is it has not zero tolerance. If a player cheap shots its only a penalty and at most a 10 game suspension. If the refs and NHL were strict on penalties and reaction for the penalties maybe the NHL wouldnt be known as the sport of goons and cheap shots.

The NHL is known as a league of goons for two reasons: (1) a while back there were a lot of cheap shots in the NHL and it developed that reputation and (2) people see that and now equate fighting with goonism

I strongly disagree with your assesment of the nature of arguing in hockey verus other sports. First off its not really fair to speculate as to what the players are saying unless you sit close enough to the rink to hear in on a regular basis. And its not something you see every game - yes you will see players upset with calls that dont go their way but you very rarely see a player go up to an official and scream at them; in fact I cant remember that ever happening in a hockey game. I think it occurs most in baseball, with players aruging with the umpire on their way back to the dugout after striking out. I also think baseball is the only sport where you see players really get up close (a foot or less) to officials, which IMO is a problem with baseball umpires. You get a player doing that in other sports and the ref just walks away or penalizes them, but baseball has developed the culture where the umpire is expected to scream at the player rather than diffusing the situion.

Also you say that a player gets 'at worst' 10 games. Firstly, that's not true, there have been many cases of players getting more time than that (Hunter, Bertuzzi, McSorely, etc). Secondly 10 games is a lot: it means the player is losing almost 1/8 their total pay for the entire year and its also the equivalent (percentage-wise) of 20 games in baseball. To again turn to the same example - in baseball players regularly throw the ball at members of the other team and get themselves suspended a half dozen games (about the equivalent of 3 in hockey, although its even further skewed because pitcher dont play every game). If throwing a rock hard object 90+ MPH at someone on purpose is not a cheap shot, I dont know what it.

I still wonder about this whole issue of the NHL not taking violence as seriously as other sports - as I pointed out before leaving the bench to get involved in an altercation is an automatic 10 game suspension in the NHL; yet this happens all the time in baseball with no consequences.

And I still wonder about this: a lot of people say that fighting encourages goonism or the NHL is letting goons ruin star players careers. Has this ever happened? I cant remember any case of a goon intentionally ruining a star players career to benefit his team and I cant remember any brutal cheap shots that when unpunished by the NHL. Its not as if they turned a blind eye when Hunter hit Turgeon or when Bertuzzi went after Moore - the players faced harsh penalties from the league.