NBA Elite 11 Impressions (Kotaku)

[mharlem]

Thats real talk Jano

[loadleft]

Quote: Originally Posted by Jano

I understand exactly what you're saying loadleft you want the game to be about basketball knowledge first then stick skills next. Well IMO its that type of thinking that has kind of trapped the basketball genre. Everybody that plays basketball games always have some type of complaint about them not playing out realistically. They may look real in some cases but that same level of realism doesn't really extend to the controls and gameplay itself. Sometimes I think we forget that these are still videogames so skill is important to have. In a lot of basketball games your skill level in the game doesn't have to be high to be successful. Just give it to the best player and just shoot. With Elite EA is trying to eliminate that ease of play and make stick skills important too. What this does is now those that have a lot of basketball knowledge and good stick skills will come out on top. And that's the way it should be because if its all about bball knowledge then you can just cheese your way to a win. If you combine the two the one that has a strong understanding of the game will be able to use his players properly. So if his team is good at running pick and roll he will use it. But because stick skills are in the equation now just understanding the game of bball will not be enough. You will also have to practice and put in work to be good at the game. One thing that i loved about Live 05 was the fact that I could beat my friends at it not just because I understood bball but im also good at the game too. I used to frustrate them when they tried to bowl into the paint by drawing charges. This forced them to have to really play ball and think while they played. With Elite I see EA trying to get back to that level of play where the best player wins and thats the one who has it together mentally (bball knowledge) and physically too (stick skills). Basically what I'm trying to say is that stick skills is what will make basketball knowledge important. B/C if there's no reason for the player to be skilled at the game then why should he use bball knowledge. If you can just chuck up threes or run around till you get a dunk why should bball knowledge be important. THe fact that EA is trrying to put skills back into the game tells ME that they are trying to get to the simulation level you and I want the game to be at.

Interesting take, but to me the simple reason to not run in circles and throw up 3's is because it won't work as in real life. If effective defense is built into the game where the presence of a defender and a hand in the face makes the shot a lot more difficult or unlikely to go in there's no need of an artificial challenge such as can you push a stick in a straight line, etc. One would be required to use basketball knowledge to get open shots or good looks at the basket. That makes it a simulation of what basketball is about not a video game with basketball aspects.

I am not against the shot stick, I feel innovations such as those should be used to add functionality that previously wasn't possible, but not add a challenge that really doesn't exist in basketball. The latter in my opinion drives the game away from being a sim. IRL the mechanics of shooting a basketball aren't that hard it's being able to do them successfully with the various challenges brought on by the game. I don't mean I should be able to shoot with my eyes close using the shot stick, I just mean it shouldn't be what the challenge of the game is about. If the shot stick is "the challenge" you'll have guys that don't even know what a pick is mastering the shot stick and effectively playing the game. So don't get me wrong if the shot stick means I don't need a layup solution movie to get to the basket but I can do it on my own, I am all for it, but if it means no matter how open I am I got to master the split second release and ability to push a stick straight to score then we're not playing basketball it's the Shot Stick Challenge!

Further I haven't heard a single thing about "...we've improved game play..." I's been you can now do all this special stuff with the controls. Instantly that reminds me of the introduction of freestyle dribbling. Now guys can do all kinds of stuff that a real life player never could simply by mastering controls. I want DNA improved, and stuff like that, you know things that makes teams bring about challenges that are based on personnel whether it's CPU or human controlled. I want it so a player that sees Rondo high overall rating and PPG statistics but doesn't realize he doesn't have a consistent jumper can't succeed shooting jumpers w/Rondo, not consistently anyway. My fear is: Master the stick get wide open J's w/non-shooters and whamo! success! Also I can see the game looking like an "And-1 mixed tape". That's just me though, if others don't feel that way so be it. At this point EA is looking for sales and I think the average fan knows nothing about real basketball fundamentals so to entice them you'll need to offer a highlight real in every play. Kobe hitting in your face fade aways, LBJ trucking down the lane, D. Howard spin move dunk, etc. That'll be sim because I saw it on TV. In the thread about camera angles some say it isn't sim if doesn't look like I'm watching it on TV. I say it's a sim of PLAYING basketball not watching it.

[jfsolo]

Quote: Originally Posted by loadleft

Interesting take, but to me the simple reason to not run in circles and throw up 3's is because it won't work as in real life. If effective defense is built into the game where the presence of a defender and a hand in the face makes the shot a lot more difficult or unlikely to go in there's no need of an artificial challenge such as can you push a stick in a straight line, etc. One would be required to use basketball knowledge to get open shots or good looks at the basket. That makes it a simulation of what basketball is about not a video game with basketball aspects. I am not against the shot stick, I feel innovations such as those should be used to add functionality that previously wasn't possible, but not add a challenge that really doesn't exist in basketball. The latter in my opinion drives the game away from being a sim. IRL the mechanics of shooting a basketball aren't that hard it's being able to do them successfully with the various challenges brought on by the game. I don't mean I should be able to shoot with my eyes close using the shot stick, I just mean it shouldn't be what the challenge of the game is about. If the shot stick is "the challenge" you'll have guys that don't even know what a pick is mastering the shot stick and effectively playing the game. So don't get me wrong if the shot stick means I don't need a layup solution movie to get to the basket but I can do it on my own, I am all for it, but if it means no matter how open I am I got to master the split second release and ability to push a stick straight to score then we're not playing basketball it's the Shot Stick Challenge! Further I haven't heard a single thing about "...we've improved game play..." I's been you can now do all this special stuff with the controls. Instantly that reminds me of the introduction of freestyle dribbling. Now guys can do all kinds of stuff that a real life player never could simply by mastering controls. I want DNA improved, and stuff like that, you know things that makes teams bring about challenges that are based on personnel whether it's CPU or human controlled. I want it so a player that sees Rondo high overall rating and PPG statistics but doesn't realize he doesn't have a consistent jumper can't succeed shooting jumpers w/Rondo, not consistently anyway. My fear is: Master the stick get wide open J's w/non-shooters and whamo! success! Also I can see the game looking like an "And-1 mixed tape". That's just me though, if others don't feel that way so be it. At this point EA is looking for sales and I think the average fan knows nothing about real basketball fundamentals so to entice them you'll need to offer a highlight real in every play. Kobe hitting in your face fade aways, LBJ trucking down the lane, D. Howard spin move dunk, etc. That'll be sim because I saw it on TV. In the thread about camera angles some say it isn't sim if doesn't look like I'm watching it on TV. I say it's a sim of PLAYING basketball not watching it.

Great Post. I concur 1000% Key points bolded for emphasis.

[Live Boii]

good read i just wanted to know more whether or not he enjoyed the experience.

[Jano]

Quote: Originally Posted by loadleft

Interesting take, but to me the simple reason to not run in circles and throw up 3's is because it won't work as in real life. If effective defense is built into the game where the presence of a defender and a hand in the face makes the shot a lot more difficult or unlikely to go in there's no need of an artificial challenge such as can you push a stick in a straight line, etc. One would be required to use basketball knowledge to get open shots or good looks at the basket. That makes it a simulation of what basketball is about not a video game with basketball aspects.

These are great points man and I can agree with them especially the part about an effective defense being built in the game. And what I'm trying to say here is by expanding the control and putting more effort into stick skills you will have that defense you want.

In real life what allows people to play defense is the fact that they can do so many things to stop a player from scoring. A lot of the problems in these games now is they don't give the player enough options to work with.

As you expand controls which EA is trying to do by doing things like separating the body you give the player more ways to play D. And that is what will ultimately allow EA to weed out cheesers b/c they are providing weapons to prevent it from happening.

Adding in some rating or animation wont be enough if you don't have a way to control it when its needed.

And onto your point on the new shot stick I understand and you're fears are definitely legitimate. But I just have some hope that EA is going to do what they can to make it so that the game is easy to pick up and play but not so much that you will be able to turn terrible shooters into great ones.

I also can't see this EA team just saying hey lets make the shooting extremely easy to master. I'm sure they are doing what they can to make it almost impossible to hit 3pters with Shaq. Pared, Hoosier, Sovartus, P-Dub, have described the guys at EA as basketball guys.

So I'm sure they want this game to be as realistic as possible. But I'm not going to sit here and blindly say they are going to get everything perfect. You could be right but but I'm just gonna believe in the team and stay optimistic.

[©roke]

Quote: Originally Posted by loadleft

Interesting take, but to me the simple reason to not run in circles and throw up 3's is because it won't work as in real life. If effective defense is built into the game where the presence of a defender and a hand in the face makes the shot a lot more difficult or unlikely to go in there's no need of an artificial challenge such as can you push a stick in a straight line, etc. One would be required to use basketball knowledge to get open shots or good looks at the basket. That makes it a simulation of what basketball is about not a video game with basketball aspects. I am not against the shot stick, I feel innovations such as those should be used to add functionality that previously wasn't possible, but not add a challenge that really doesn't exist in basketball. The latter in my opinion drives the game away from being a sim. IRL the mechanics of shooting a basketball aren't that hard it's being able to do them successfully with the various challenges brought on by the game. I don't mean I should be able to shoot with my eyes close using the shot stick, I just mean it shouldn't be what the challenge of the game is about. If the shot stick is "the challenge" you'll have guys that don't even know what a pick is mastering the shot stick and effectively playing the game. So don't get me wrong if the shot stick means I don't need a layup solution movie to get to the basket but I can do it on my own, I am all for it, but if it means no matter how open I am I got to master the split second release and ability to push a stick straight to score then we're not playing basketball it's the Shot Stick Challenge! Further I haven't heard a single thing about "...we've improved game play..." I's been you can now do all this special stuff with the controls. Instantly that reminds me of the introduction of freestyle dribbling. Now guys can do all kinds of stuff that a real life player never could simply by mastering controls. I want DNA improved, and stuff like that, you know things that makes teams bring about challenges that are based on personnel whether it's CPU or human controlled. I want it so a player that sees Rondo high overall rating and PPG statistics but doesn't realize he doesn't have a consistent jumper can't succeed shooting jumpers w/Rondo, not consistently anyway. My fear is: Master the stick get wide open J's w/non-shooters and whamo! success! Also I can see the game looking like an "And-1 mixed tape". That's just me though, if others don't feel that way so be it. At this point EA is looking for sales and I think the average fan knows nothing about real basketball fundamentals so to entice them you'll need to offer a highlight real in every play. Kobe hitting in your face fade aways, LBJ trucking down the lane, D. Howard spin move dunk, etc. That'll be sim because I saw it on TV. In the thread about camera angles some say it isn't sim if doesn't look like I'm watching it on TV. I say it's a sim of PLAYING basketball not watching it.

While I agree with you for the most part of your post, when you're playing real basketball and you are wide open, you still got to shoot right to score. If you do something wrong, the ball most likely won't go in. That's the point of controlling your shots. If you miss, it will be your fault, just like in real life.

[Tha_Kid]

Quote: Originally Posted by Jano

So I'm sure they want this game to be as realistic as possible. But I'm not going to sit here and blindly say they are going to get everything perfect. You could be right but but I'm just gonna believe in the team and stay optimistic.

Pretty much agree with Jano. I don't get why the opposite seems to be okay here though, for people to blindly speculate that everything will be messed up simply because "this is EA".

Instead of envisioning what the shooting could be like, why not read up on it as that would assuage this somehow rampant idea that getting the angle and timing down will equal a make regardless of ratings, defense, court position, etc. All the stick (not just shot stick since the RS controls hands, left to right movements for dribbling, up for shooting) is doing is replacing what pressing X used to do in order to give the user a little more control over the outcome. Not unlike taking movement from a dpad to an analog stick.

I'm agree with loadleft's philosophy about basketball gaming but not the tone of his post. The game was announced maybe a month ago, with no previews yet and an embargo for another week: How could you have heard anything about gameplay or AI yet? Every year, 2K/EA announce a feature or a talking point and people decry it because that must've been the only thing they worked on. Wait and find out, you've got 4 months before you give anyone your $60.

[loadleft]

Quote: Originally Posted by Tha_Kid

Pretty much agree with Jano. I don't get why the opposite seems to be okay here though, for people to blindly speculate that everything will be messed up simply because "this is EA". Instead of envisioning what the shooting could be like, why not read up on it as that would assuage this somehow rampant idea that getting the angle and timing down will equal a make regardless of ratings, defense, court position, etc. All the stick (not just shot stick since the RS controls hands, left to right movements for dribbling, up for shooting) is doing is replacing what pressing X used to do in order to give the user a little more control over the outcome. Not unlike taking movement from a dpad to an analog stick. I'm agree with loadleft's philosophy about basketball gaming but not the tone of his post. The game was announced maybe a month ago, with no previews yet and an embargo for another week: How could you have heard anything about gameplay or AI yet? Every year, 2K/EA announce a feature or a talking point and people decry it because that must've been the only thing they worked on. Wait and find out, you've got 4 months before you give anyone your $60.

I'm not sure what my tone is! At least not the one you're referring to. I usually post long drawn out comments so that reading between the lines is not needed and my point is clear. That said here it is short and sweet. I am a huge Live fan! I don't even play 2K, I've done so twice 2007 & 2009. I don't have an agenda. I am not against the shot stick. I believe the reason EA brought in guys from the community is to get comments and impressions early enough to be able to make changes, in turn I think expressing concerns here gets them seen also for the same reason. I think blindly doing anything would be turning against the proven track record that EA has and assuming that this time it'll be done right.

Jano we're not far apart, I am just harping on lets not go way over to the stick skills side and forget that this is basketball. When I was a kid there was a little game of table top basketball that had a vibrating court with holes in it. Inside the holes were these little spring loaded "shooters". The object was that as the ball rolled around and fell into one of these holes you had to trigger the shooter (kinda like pinball) to shoot the ball into the basket from that spot (the location of the hole). It required skill (lots of it) but not much basketball knowledge. I don't want to play that game anymore, you get my drift, LOL

Although I've answered why I don't think "wait and see" is the right move. Would someone from the wait and see crowd please explain to me what to do on a discussion board while you're waiting to see?