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Expanded Attributes
This is a discussion on Expanded Attributes within the Madden NFL Football forums.
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04-10-2017, 12:15 PM | #1 |
MVP
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Expanded Attributes
Expanded Attributes
So similar to the Badge Ideas thread I started earlier this year, I wanted to open a discussion on what if they went the “Expanded Attributes” route either instead of badges or in conjunction with them. This starts with looking at the attributes that already exist in Madden and how they apply, working up to how they could be expanded and organised in such a way that it can make for either quick use or more in depth use. Unlike a lot of other sports games out there, in fact, practically all of them, Madden and Football is in a unique position where not only are none of the players 2 way players, but the position groups perform very specialised tasks on the field without much overlap with other position groups. Therefore, when you look at the abundance of attributes presented (see below for the long list) in current Madden games, when you look at them in more detail, they are actually a little bit… basic. Compare with a game like Fifa or NBA2k where each player is both offensive AND defensive and can be asked to do anything at any position creating some very unique players but also a more dynamic set of players overall. Compare the difference to how PG Westbrook plays the game vs Chris Paul or a 7”3’ centre finding themselves on perimeter defence or that a Striker can find themselves on defence in the box or a Centre-back asked to come up forward and score with a header. You avoid doing certain moves or actions with a player knowing they suck at doing that move and try to play to the strengths of the players on the field/court/pitch. Madden (or football in general) doesn’t have this type of dynamism, except possible on a defensive return for a touchdown and so the attributes could do with expanding for each position. The following list looks huge but like I said, once you pick out important attributes for a specific position it is not. However, expanding the attributes is likely to get heads spinning for new gamers and non-sim guys who just want to throw 4 verts all day, therefore like how the Madden Skills Trainer is the best of all sports games, it needs to be broken down for ease of use. Rough Breakdown of the Existing Attributes in Madden POS Specific Position of player Height Affects size rating and wingspan radius Weight Affects Size Rating Age Development soft and hard cap, regression and retirement DEV Cost of XP packages, rate of XP earned and regression of player OVR Dynamic overall of player based on scheme position archetype PHYS Combination of physical traits affected by Scheme Archetype and determines OVR INT Combination of intangible traits affected by Scheme Archetype and determines OVR DUR Combination of Stamina, Injury and Toughness determines OVR SIZE Combination of height and weight affected by Scheme Archetype and determines OVR PER Intangible performance rating affecting season-season OVR, now resets each season, used to accumulate over a career SPD Maximum Speed ACC Time taken to reach full speed AGI Lateral Speed/Change of direction STR Overall Strength of player JMP Jumping Height AWR Awareness, affects a number of things and some believe to act like a consistency rating THP Velocity and max distance of throw THA Accuracy during sim TAS Accuracy% of short throws TAM Accuracy% of intermediate throws TAD Accuracy% of deep throws PAC Probability of Play Action "bite" RUN Accuracy modifier if on the move CAR Probability% of fumbling TRK Ability to fall forwards and % break tackles with power moves ELU Ability and % to break tackles with shifty moves BCV Consistency modifier for O-Line, acts like runner AWR in sim STF Ability and % to break tackles or extend run before tackled with stiff arm SPN % of performing successful spin move JUK % of performing successful juke move CAT % of catching ball in open field SPC % of triggering and successfully performing spectacular catch CIT % of catching ball when defender closes RTE speed/agility bonus when running routes with cuts RLS % ability to beat press RBK Length of time run block is held PBK Length of time pass block is held IMP % of performing a pancake RBS Hidden trait in CFM RBF Hidden trait in CFM PBS Hidden trait in CFM PBF Hidden trait in CFM TCK % of performing successful tackle and not allowing break tackle PWR % of causing fumble PMV % of beating pass block with power move FMV % of beating pass block with finesse move BSH % of beating run block with shed move PUR Effort of defender chasing ball carrier, possible angle to tackle PRC Acts like AWR but for defence MAN Ability to stick with player in man coverage ZON Ability to hand off in zone and reaction speed on football PRS % ability to jam receiver at LOS STA Length of time for sprint button and no. of break tackles performed TGH Length of injury once injured INJ % of becoming injured with on-football play RET % of dropping punt or kick return KPW Max distance and hang time of kick KAC Accuracy% of kick and punts Personality Sells jerseys in owner mode Popularity Sells jerseys in owner mode Consistency XP earned in training drills (retired) Performance Intangible performance rating affecting season-season OVR, now resets each season The Big 7 that make OVR Physical – A grade/rating for the physical attributes at that position Skill – A grade/rating for the skill attributes at that position, this can be learnt/coached Intangible – A grade/rating for the more innate unmeasurable attributes at that position Playmaking – A grade/rating for the playmaking attributes at that position Heart– A grade/rating for the team/morale influence Durability– A grade/rating for the player durability Size – A grade/rating for the size rating based on scheme position archetype Physical
Skill This one is a hard one so stick with me as it needs to be split per position and obviously the weighting of each skill would depend on the scheme archetype in place. QB – The most important position in all of sports needs a lot more focus than currently exists, see QB accuracy diagram for example:
HB
FB
WR
TE
OL
Defense
Playmaking – Weighted differently depending on position and archetype
Intangible
Heart
Durability
Size
User Interface One of the trickiest parts of expanding attributes is the UI. Present too much information too quickly and it will overwhelm even the hardiest of sim players and present a cumbersome player menu. Hide the attributes under too many layers and people will find it exhausting learning about certain players. I think the best setup in the roster menu would be levels. Click roster Initial View – Name (Fixed Cell when scrolling)/Physical/Skill/Intangible/Playmaking/Heart/Durability/Size/Career Over the top where the picture shows would be Height/Weight/Wingspan/Morale/Chemistry/OVR/Position preferences Click triangle (Y) for expanded roster attributes Click square (X) on player1 and then player2 to compare attributes Click X(A) on player for specific roster attributes tile e.g. breakdown of Big8 attributes When on player tile click triangle (Y) for subcategory attribute tile (route running, QB accuracy, DL moves) Conclusion Obviously the QB gets most of the love here, but that is because it needs the most differentiation out of any position in all of sports. The biggest new attribute that affects multiple positions is the Hand Fighting attribute. Look at most scouting reports IRL and they will talk about quick or strong hands but Madden has no way to replicate that. Articles written about the art of the pass rush talk about how matchups, angles and correct hand placement can beat athleticism most times. The other biggest split is that playmaking and proper intangibles are now separated in a player. A player might have low skill but great intangibles, physical and playmaking abilities and you have to team plan for that player (T. Tebow comes to mind here). In Madden the intangibles listed are actually tangible skills like catching or accuracy. As mentioned previously, the expansion of stats is about accessibility to a level that a player is most comfortable with. If a player wants a high level “just play” franchise experience they can have that, if a play wants to know every detail about their team they can have that too! Not sure if most of these expanded attributes would make it out of Franchise, as in MUT they would muddy the water too much. It is worth noting that Head Coach scheme archetypes would also adjust how the Big8 traits are weighted too. So a strong arm QB scheme archetype would emphasize a bigger % of throw power to the Physical Rating. This is all just my idea of how attributes could be split out and am totally open to suggestions, tweaks and discussions. If I have got an attribute function totally off mark just let me know as it was quite a rough breakdown of their functions. Think how your favourite players would be put together??!! Concept Tiles as follows:
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The State of Madden Franchise Scouting Tool Draft Class Strength Generator Franchise Tips Last edited by Mattanite; 05-19-2017 at 08:22 AM. |
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04-10-2017, 02:49 PM | #2 |
Rookie
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Re: Expanded Attributes
This is all awesome stuff man! In fact, I like it so much I'm going to add some to it:
Physical: - Hand size, also important in the same sense as wingspan. Also, this affects catching, so tie it to catching ratings? Probably related to fumbles as well. - Maybe tie first step into “explosiveness”? That ability to generate a tremendous amount of force in a short area. This would be graded through broad jump and vertical scores. I am fascinated by the draft and scouting process, and the more measurable we get the better. WR: - Separation, I’m certain that Paul Richardson is faster than DJax at this point in their careers, but DJax craps all over him in deep passes. The reason is DJax gets that separation at the point of the catch, that last little burst right before the ball reaches his hands. This would help differentiate between speed guys and true deep threats. One thing I would love to see is an “Intensity” rating. A player with high intensity plays with an edge and is a bully, whereas the opposite is the definition of a soft player. This could be a trait, leading me to my last idea… Internal traits and coachable traits: Internal traits are special qualities that differentiate players from good to great. For example, Percy Harvin has open field moves unlike any player I’ve seen, so he should have some sort of “open field greatness” trait. These traits cannot be bought with EXP or added in any way. They are unique to certain players. Coachable traits are things like intensity (above), high motor, and technique related things. They are related to the coaching staff of your team. If your head coach specializes in motivation, those low motor guys will be high motor guys. If a new coach comes in next year without that, back to low motor. Of course some players will be high motor all the time and vice versa. Coaches could specialize in things like technique (lower penalties). This could open up to full coaching staffs. |
04-11-2017, 03:56 AM | #3 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
MVP
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Re: Expanded Attributes
That was how I imagined first step, short area explosiveness and reaction time off the snap! Goes beyond just straight acceleration.
Love the idea of it all being tied to coaching (and scrapping XP), teams would not only scout/draft based on their preferences, but each team would coach players differently. The progression, regression and potential ratings determining how easy and how much a player can be coached.
cable guy likes this.
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The State of Madden Franchise Scouting Tool Draft Class Strength Generator Franchise Tips |
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04-11-2017, 08:07 AM | #4 |
Rookie
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Re: Expanded Attributes
This is 100% what I want and I had been meaning to write something similar, but you put it in better words than I could've.
As it is, there are not nearly enough attributes to differentiate players between one another. And as mentioned, I'm also behind scrapping XP and moving towards a coaching-based system. I want to be able to sign an offensive line coach who is really good at teaching hands technique and when he trains my guys they receive a little boost to the training of that attribute. |
04-11-2017, 08:15 AM | #5 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
MVP
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Re: Expanded Attributes
That's exactly it, some coaches will teach certain skills better than others and all players learn at different speeds! Players would slowly get better during the season (hopefully!) but the coaches would put most of their time into progression in the offseason. Hidden potential with vague progression/regression ratings means you don't know if you're player is a bust until the end of their rookie contract. A player could have high hidden potential but low progression value, so they take a while to get there (Morris Claiborne for example). A player with moderate potential but 99 progression rating would pretty much peak as a solid player after their rookie season and not get much better after that, but you don't know that until a few years in when they're not getting better.
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The State of Madden Franchise Scouting Tool Draft Class Strength Generator Franchise Tips |
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04-11-2017, 08:24 AM | #6 |
MVP
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Re: Expanded Attributes
Concept tiles for QB accuracy, WR route running and defensive pass rush moves are now attached at the end of the original post. Apologies for the rotation (just CTRL+SHIFT+=).
These concepts are just an idea to improve the presentation of the increased amounts of attributes and in a world where they are implemented, I can imagine a Franchise section of the Skills Trainer where it explains the breakdowns on the practice field.
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The State of Madden Franchise Scouting Tool Draft Class Strength Generator Franchise Tips Last edited by Mattanite; 04-11-2017 at 08:32 AM. |
04-11-2017, 08:40 AM | #7 |
MVP
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Re: Expanded Attributes
sorry to be a damp squib. you say that position groups are specialised and split out the offensive players, then proceed to lump all defenders in one group. i wouldnt expect a dlineman to act eh same was as either a lber or db, or limit any of the 3 areas to specifics. in reality in my mind ILB is different to OLB and dependent on scheme.
i dont see what this achieves, there are already issues with an "OVR" and how arbitrary that is depending on the ratings czar of the time. how would this logic work for Bill and his "do your job" mantra where players are there for very specific reasons or occasions.
Geodude likes this.
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04-11-2017, 08:52 AM | #8 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
MVP
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Re: Expanded Attributes
I thought about splitting DL, Pass Rusher, LB, DB (or CB, S) but there is so much overlap between one group to the next that I did lump them together for ease of explanation. Awareness would work differently between groups but a lot of it is still based on matchup (DB vs WR, DL vs OL, LB vs HB/TE) so again there is a bit of overlap in function there too. This is how scheme archetypes work anyway at the moment and wouldn't want to shift too far from that, just expand the archetypes and position options (3rd Down HB archetype, Nickel MLB2 archetype e.g. for Redskins/Cardinals).
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