WW Dukes Versus Hunters (GAME OVER!!--See Post #1387)

[Chief Rum]

The Game

The title says it all. Every player will be either a Duke or a Hunter (with some variations).

While this game will feature two teams of hunters and dukes, it will actually be a normal WW game, with mostly villagers and a smaller number of wolves, hidden randomly among the hunters and dukes.

I can't currently think of a fictional framework that would explain this set up, so this is more or less a straight werewolf-villager universe.

I will expand on the game roles and rules in subsequent posts.

Game Start

I am going to see how the player list looks. If it fills up quick, we'll start Monday (April 20). If it doesn't, we'll hold off until later in the week or more likely, the next following Monday (April 27).

I can play this game with a small number or large number of players. Obviously, the more players, the better.

The DEADLINE ***PLEASE READ***

Due to my unavailability on some nights, I need to work with a 24 hour mid-day deadline. I currently project that deadline to be 4 p.m. EST (1 p.m. PDT).

For some people, this might actually be a benefit, as many of us are desk jockey players. But it may rule out others who would normally be able to contribute after work, but can't during the day.

I'm going to play it by ear with the time, depending on the responses here and in the GM thread, but I will make a final decision on the time well before the start of the game.

[Chief Rum]

BASIC SETUP

This is your standard game of werewolf, underneath it all. There will be mostly villagers and a small group of wolves.

The major win condition for the village is to eliminate all the wolves. Except where the rules allow, the villagers will not be allowed to communicate outside of the game thread (and specifically through PMs).

The major win condition for the wolves will be to achieve a 1:1 ratio with th e villagers. The wolves will be allowed to communicate vi PM. The wolves will be able to nightkill one player at every deadline.

The players will vote to lynch one player every day. Unless other rule conditions come into play to stop the lynch, that player will be lynched at the end of the day and removed from the game.


VOTING

Each day, every player must submit a vote for a player to be lynched.

The proper form to vote is as follows:

VOTE CHIEF RUM

Votes which do not follow this form are at risk of being missed or disallowed.

To change your vote, follow this form:

UNVOTE CHIEF RUM

You may unvote and re-vote in the same post. I will accept the BGG format of simply stating Unvote.

Self-votes are not allowed. Two days without a vote from the player will get the player removed from the game. Nightfall votes will lock in that player's vote, but an actual early nightfall will only be honored if it is unanimously approved by all remaining players in the game.

The mechanism for determining results in the case of a tie vote is unknown.


THE DEADLINE

This game will use a 24 hour deadline. The deadline each day (Monday through Friday) will be 4 p.m. EST/1 p.m. PDT.

This is the deadline for both day actions (voting, duke actions, etc.) and night actions (nightkills, seer scans, etc.).

Any actions for the day or night that is not an "immediate" action must be sent to the GM by the deadline. Conditionals are allowed.

Votes and actions will be eligible to be counted if they happen up to and including 4:00 p.m. EST (1:00 p.m. PDT). Any votes at 4:01 p.m. EST (1:01 p.m. PDT) will not be counted.


DUKES AND HUNTERS

The villagers and wolves are also split into two separate groups: the Dukes and the Hunters.

There is no tie between players being wolfs or villagers and being dukes and hunters. Every player's allegiance as a Duke or a Hunter will be assigned randomly, regardless of their allegiance as a wolf or villager.

Although the major win conditions lie with the wolves versus the villagers, every player also has a minor win condition as a Duke or a Hunter to see that his respective team is the dominant faction left in the game at the end. This will be determined on majority.

There will be wolf-villager roles, and also hunter-duke roles. It is possible to have a role from each allegiance (seer and medic, for instance).

DUKES

Dukes have the ability to change the lynch vote one time in the game, changing the actual player lynched to a player of his choosing. If there are multiple attempts to duke a lynch, an unknown tiebreaker mechanism will kick in. Only one player will be lynched, but all duke attempts will be counted an that power will be exhausted for all those who chose to duke the lynch.

Any duke action must be sent to the GM before that day's deadline via PM.

If you duke to a player who is also a duke, in addition to that player dying, you will also die. The only way to avoid this in a regular duking is to duke to a Hunter.

Each duke can, one time in the game, choose to PM to another duke. He can put in the message whatever he wishes, but he will not know what duke the message goes to, nor will the duke receiving it know from whom it came. The PM will be sent to the GM.

HUNTERS

Hunters have the ability, one time per game, to kill another player in the game, and this action will happen immediately once the GM has seen the PM. If multiple actions are received, the first received will be executed. The others received will be ignored, and those Hunters will continue to have their Hunter ability.

Only one Hunter kill will be allowed per day. No Hunters may elect to use this skill on Day One, and under no circumstance may a Hunter elect to use his kill within the last hour before deadline.

If the GM has not yet acted on a Hunter kill PM, it is possible for the sending Hunter to withdraw this action.

If you use your Hunter kill on another Hunter, in addition to that player dying, you will also die. The only way to avoid this in a regular Hunter kill is to kill a Duke.

Each hunter can, one time in the game, choose to PM to another hunter. He can put in the message whatever he wishes, but he will not know what hunter the message goes to, nor will the hunter receiving it know from whom it came. The PM will be sent to the GM.


GENERAL RULES

Editing of posts is allowed on two conditions--they must be edited within five minutes of the original post, and they must only be for proofing/grammar/spelling reasons.

Any player violating this risks the wrath of the GM.

Be courteous. This is just a game. We're here to have fun, not tear each other's throats out.

If you are killed, do not continue to post in the game thread except one last message to wish your team well. No game information may be discussed in any such farewell messages.

No discussion of the game is allowed outside of the thread, other than those manners provided for in the rules (i.e. PMs among living players).

No discussion is allowed during the processing of night actions following the lynch, except for general commentary on the lynch results. After night actions have been posted, regular discussion may ensue.

As always, if there is any general WW rule we observe here that I neglected to include, please consider it enacted. If you have any doubts about that, ask me in thread or PM me.

[Chief Rum]

ROLES

All roles will be in the game.

*****

Villager Roles

BODYGUARD-- This player has the option to watch over one player per night from an attack from the wolves. He can protect himself. He cannot protect the same person two nights in a row.

SEER-- This player has the ability to observe one player per night to determine their wolf-villager allegiance.

CULTIST-- You are a villager but you are a wannabe wolf. You win with the wolves, but count towards the village for win conditions. You know the wolves' identities and their Hunter/Duke allegiances. You cannot PM a player like the others, but you can receive PMs. You do not have a natural Hunter or Duke ability, although you will be a member of one of those teams. You have the ability to act as a member of one of those teams as if you were The Blank (Hunter team) or Stuttering Sam (Duke team). If you are attacked by the wolves, you will join them.

Wolf Roles

CUNNING-- This wolf will come up as a villager if the seer scans him.

BRUTAL-- This wolf will take a player of his choosing with him if he is lynched.

*****

Duke Roles

MEDIC-- You have the option each day to watch over any other player in the game. You can watch over the same player each day, but you cannot watch over yourself. If that player is shot through a Hunter Kill, you will save his life. You will then lose your ability as a Medic. The target will survive, but he will be unable to take any action for the rest of that day. He may not be lynched on that day.

BUDDY-- You are everyone's friend. Even the Hunters like you. You can charm any player in the game into revealing his Hunter-Duke allegiance, once per night.

STUTTERING SAM-- You are Sam, and you have a stutter that is so bad, you cannot speak well enough to use the Duke ability. But you do not know this. To your knowledge, you will appear to be a regular Duke. Your attempt to duke will nullify all other dukings that day, and the original lynch target will still be lynched.

Hunter Roles

PEACEMAKER-- You are an uncommonly good orator for a Hunter and one time per game, you can stop a duking from happening. The result will be a no lynch.

BULLY-- You are a big brute of man with little consciousness when it comes to beating people up. Each night you may bully and beat up another player to determine his Hunter-Duke allegiance.

THE BLANK-- You don't know it, but someone slipped you a clip with blanks. Your shot will not kill the target.

***

ITEMS

There will be items in this game as well, all of which will be randomly handed out at the start of the game. These items may be passed around.

The items in the game:

Bulletproof Vest-- This item stops a bullet one time.

Ammo Clip-- This item gives you a second shot, or if you're a Duke, a first shot.

Laser Sight Scope-- If this is used in conjunction with the ability to shoot, and is aimed at someone on the opposite Duke/Hunter team, your shot will even kill someone wearing a Bulletproof Vest or a Camo Outfit. If you fire at someone on your own team, it won't fire. One time use.

Mirror-- This item can be used on a player with a gun to distract him so that his shot misses. You pick a player every day until it is used, after which the mirror breaks (no bad luck).

Camo Outfit-- If you are wearing this outfit, you cannot be found by a Hunter to shoot or Duked to by a Duke. It can only be worn three days.

Bullhorn-- This item stops any Duking if you're not Duking, and allows your Duking to be the one which happens if you are. One time use.

[Chief Rum]

Player List

1. Shoveler-- SURVIVOR, Duke, No Roles
2. Grover-- Duke and Stuttering Sam, Oil Profiteer, LYNCHED, Day Six
3. JAG-- Hunter, KILLED BY WOLVES, Night One
4. timmae-- Hunter, Peacemaker and Cunning Wolf, DUKE-LYNCHED BY SHOVELER, Day Three
5. cheekimonk-- SURVIVOR, Duke, No Roles
6. Raven-- Duke, KILLED BY WOLVES, Night Four
7. The Jackal-- Hunter, KILLED BY WOLVES, Night Three
8. Vaimes-- Hunter, DUKE-LYNCHED BY MARTIND, Day Two
9. fontisian-- Hunter and Blank, LYNCHED, Day Four
10. EagleFan-- Hunter, Brutal Wolf, DUKE-LYNCHED BY MRBUG708, Day Five
11. Autumn-- Hunter and Seer, KILLED BY WOLVES, Night Five
12. britrock88-- Duke and Cultist, SHOT-KILLED BY AUTUMN, Day Five
13. Zinto-- Hunter, LYNCHED, Day One
14. Narcizo-- Duke, BRUTAL-KILLED BY EAGLEFAN, Day Five
15. MartinD-- Duke, MEDIC, SHOT-KILLED BY EAGLFAN, Day Three
16. MrBug708-- SURVIVOR, DUKE and Bodyguard


MINOR WIN CONDITION: The DUKES have won the minor win condition.

[Shoveler]

Im in

[Grover]

I'm in, I suppose.

[Chief Rum]

For those who don't know...

A Hunter is a role where the player can, at any time, once per game, shoot and kill another player in the game.

A Duke is a role where the player can, at the deadline, once per game, change the lynch results.

[JAG]

Not sure how those rules would work, but I'll be interested to see. In. Can't guarantee I'll be around at deadlines.

[Chief Rum]

Not sure how those rules would work, but I'll be interested to see. In. Can't guarantee I'll be around at deadlines.

It's definitely an experimental ruleset, but the roles will all be fairly simple and there will be some checks and balances.

I'll be honest, though, it is entirely possible for the game to end on Day One or to go on for a while.

[timmae]

In. Calling Grover meta vote D1 right now.

[Grover]

In. Calling Grover meta vote D1 right now.

Ass. ;)

Also, if I'm a Hunter, I am shooting you day one. Just because.

[timmae]

hey now... us noobs need to stick together! Right cheeks?! Where's cheeki?

[cheekimonk]

hey now... us noobs need to stick together! Right cheeks?! Where's cheeki?

Truth. You mean except the Wheel of Time game? ;)

[cheekimonk]

In

[timmae]

Truth. You mean except the Wheel of Time game? ;)

Shoot, that's right. I am starting to gather a list of enemies... Heya EF! Didn't see you hiding over there! How ya doing pal! Ole' buddy of mine. Surely you'll be the ugly half of my trust team! ;)

[Raven]

In. But the early deadline is going to screw with my availability. Just wanted to establish that up front.

[The Jackal]

In / wtf

[The Jackal]

This should be interesting

[Vaimes]

I'll be in.

[fontisian]

In.

[EagleFan]

In

[Autumn]

In. Shouldn't take much time with the massive chain of kills on the first day. ;-)

[cheekimonk]

In. Shouldn't take much time with the massive chain of kills on the first day. ;-)

I'm a newb, but I agree. I predict fontisian will be involved in the first kill somehow.

[Vaimes]

I'm a newb, but I agree. I predict fontisian will be involved in the first kill somehow.

(heh heh heh)

[fontisian]

I'm preemptively claiming bulletproof and lynch proof.

[cheekimonk]

I'm preemptively claiming bulletproof and lynch proof.

Solid.

[Vaimes]

gotta kill the Witch

[EagleFan]

gotta kill the Witch

Burn the witch, get it right. Wolf!!!!

[cheekimonk]

"Did you dress her up this way?"
"Well...we did do the nose."
"The nose?"
"And the hat...but she is a witch!"
...
"She turned me into a newt!"
"A newt?!"
"...I got better."

[Grover]

Relevant: Stephen Hawking Singing Monty Python's "Galaxy Song" Is Perfection (http://io9.com/stephen-hawking-singing-monty-pythons-galaxy-song-is-1697662675)

[britrock88]

In.

[britrock88]

Two questions:

1) What if two hunters target the same person?
2) What if multiple dukes attempt to throw the lynch?

[Zinto]

I am in

[EagleFan]

Can we still post in the "I was killed early" thread when we are ALL killed day/night one...

[fontisian]

WEREWOLVES Starring Kate Micucci, Felicia Day, and Jeff Lewis - HALLOWEEK - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cIK6Kyn3NM)

I'll just leave this here.

[Shoveler]

Two questions:

1) What if two hunters target the same person?

That person gets shot twice

2) What if multiple dukes attempt to throw the lynch?

The double duke? I think that's like crossing the streams.
.

[Narcizo]

I believe the time schedule will mean I can actually be around at deadline for the first time since Pass' games. Or possibly not. Not that it should matter once the bodies start hitting the floor. I'm guessing the shorterst game ever.

Perhaps Werewolves vs Vampires (werewolves are hunters, vampires are dukes) for flavour.

[timmae]

Fellas... We are not all either a hunter or a duke. That'd be crazy talk.. :)

[JAG]

Fellas... We are not all either a hunter or a duke. That'd be crazy talk.. :)

Lying already?

The Game

The title says it all. Every player will be either a Duke or a Hunter (with some variations).

Obviously a wolf.

[Shoveler]

BREAKING NEWS: Timmae was found dead after night one. He was apparently shot seven times.

[timmae]

Now where did I put that Kevlar vest... wait, I know....

http://www.strangeharvest.com/pope/popemobile10.jpg

[timmae]

While this game will feature two teams of hunters and dukes, it will actually be a normal WW game, with mostly villagers and a smaller number of wolves, hidden randomly among the hunters and dukes.

There gotsa be rules around here...

[EagleFan]

There gotsa be rules around here...

But those villagers and wolves will be hunters and dukes.

We'll save a spot in the I was killed early thread for you. :)

[timmae]

well shoot.... Not at me darnit! I'm good. Honestly. I'll prove it by saving you! ;)

[EagleFan]

well shoot.... Not at me darnit! I'm good. Honestly. I'll prove it by saving you! ;)

I believe him, he's not acting like a wolf now.

[Autumn]

Oh man, a Pope special role that is immune to both would be great. Infallible and Popemobile are his traits.

[Autumn]

Two questions:

1) What if two hunters target the same person?
2) What if multiple dukes attempt to throw the lynch?

What do you mean "what if"?

[JAG]

Latham has to come back for this game so I can duke it to him Day 1.

[MartinD]

In - will be nice to be able to be around at deadline (although being alive after deadline could be an issue here... ;) )

[Chief Rum]

Two questions:

1) What if two hunters target the same person?
2) What if multiple dukes attempt to throw the lynch?



1. As with the usual Hunter role, most of the Hunter roles here will be processed as soon as I see them. So it would be unlikely to have two Hunters send in kill orders at exactly the same time. I will process shoot orders in the order in which I receive them.

2. To be determined. I have several scenarios in mind and I am still thinking over the best way to go about them. If I don't go with an interesting way, I will default to first duke order received is used.

[Chief Rum]

The player list is coming along nicely, so we should be able to start this coming Monday. Roles will be sent out Sunday night.

I am finalizing the ruleset details, and if I finish before the end of my work day, I will put them up before I leave. If I don't finish them today, they will go up tomorrow night at the latest.

[The Jackal]

sidenote: pretty sure I was deciding between The Duke and The Jackal when setting up a forum name here

[Raven]

So the Hunter's kill gets processed immediately (well, as soon as Chief sees it), and not at the deadline, correct?

[Chief Rum]

So the Hunter's kill gets processed immediately (well, as soon as Chief sees it), and not at the deadline, correct?

Generally, correct.

Keep in mind there will be modifications to some Hunter roles that could affect this. But by and large, that is how the Hunter works, yes.

[EagleFan]

So half of the game is killed of about ten minutes after CR says go. :)

[MrBug708]

I'm game

[Autumn]

I sent my kill order in yesterday.

[EagleFan]

I sent my kill order in yesterday.

Crap, so I'm out of the game already...

:D

[cheekimonk]

Crap, so I'm out of the game already...

:D

Maybe you can strike font from beyond the grave. We don't know the rules just yet.

[Autumn]

Font has already caught the wolves, don't worry folks.

[Chief Rum]

I am putting up final roles tonight and will actually send out roles first thing in the morning for a Tuesday midday deadline. I came to realize how silly it would be to run a Day One for either a half day (Monday deadline) or a day and a half (Tuesday deadline).

[EagleFan]

Looking forward to the carnage...

:devil:

[Chief Rum]

Rules and roles have been set out in the second and third posts of the thread.

The only additions to be made there going forward will be a handful of items I will add to the third post before the start of the game.

Roles will be sent out when I get to work in the morning, and the game will then begin.

Please let me know if you have any questions about the ruleset.

[Narcizo]

Is the hunter who executed a kill order revealed on killing? Is the duke who moved a vote revealed?

[Narcizo]

Oh and the rules look really interesting - particularly the wolves being in on the minor victory condition with the villagers.

[JAG]

Love the rules, nice work.

[timmae]

Ready for a messy day... See everyone on the backside!

[The Jackal]

Very cool ruleset. Makes it much less likely that everyone will die on D1 ;)

[Autumn]

This is going to be nuts. the good kind of nuts.

[Narcizo]

Cashew.

[fontisian]

I love cashews.

[Chief Rum]

Is the hunter who executed a kill order revealed on killing? Is the duke who moved a vote revealed?

Yes, both the hunters and dukes are revealed when their actions result in public consequences.

[Chief Rum]

Okay, putting in some items on the front page, then rolling for the random roles and then sending PMs out.

If you receive your role, please do not post anything game related before I start the game.

[Chief Rum]

Items have been added to the third post.

[Chief Rum]

Key change: I have added a Cultist role. See the third post for details.

[Chief Rum]

Roles going out.

[Chief Rum]

Roles have been sent out. The next post will officially start the game.

[Chief Rum]

It was just another peaceful day in the Bayou in the sleepy swamp village of Rollette.

That is, until someone discovered an oil deposit on village lands.

All of a sudden, the area was swamped with sweet talking carpetbaggers, trying to work their way into the village and stake their claim. They are the Dukes.

The local gun-toting yokels are having none of that. They don't care about oil or money. They just want to be left alone. They are the Hunters.

Whoever wins out will claim the oil.

But is that it? No! There are suspicions of a more insidious nature, a group of oil profiteers who will stop at nothing to claim all the oil and the money coming from it. They will kill every last Hunter and Duke if they need to to get it.

But who are they? They could be Hunters or the could be Dukes?

Can the village find them--and keep the oil--before the profiteers can get their hands on all that oil money?

DAY ONE HAS BEGUN.

The deadline for Day One is Tuesday (tomorrow) at 4 p.m. EST/1 p.m. PDT

A reminder: Hunters may not shoot on this day. No shooting is allowed on Day One at all, or in the last hour before the deadline on any day.

[Grover]

Oil? Obligatory...

"I drink your milkshake!"

[timmae]

This is a very complex ruleset from a strategy standpoint. Many roles, a few items, quite a bit of cause and effect. Holy shitballs this will be fun.

OOG: Just a heads up that I have offsite meetings from 8am until 4pm CST tomorrow (Tuesday).

vote cheeki

Standard meta vote.

[Vaimes]

I rolled town again.

Vote fontisian

Time to go WitchHunting.

[EagleFan]

vote timmae

Oh, and checking in. Will be on for a few but have meetings coming up. Back on later tonight afterwards.

[MartinD]

This looks like it could be interesting...

Vote at random, as a placeholder for now:

VOTE SHOVELER

[Vaimes]

Someone should pass me an item toNight so I can feel less boring.

[Vaimes]

Unvote
Vote timmae

[JAG]

Vanilla villager checking in.

...

What?

[timmae]

Someone should pass me an item toNight so I can feel less boring.

Or you could early claim a role! How fun would that be?! :p

[Vaimes]

Vanilla villager checking in.

...

What?

I am so annoyed, with all these cool abilities and items, I managed to roll the vanilla-ist of vanillas. I cannot believe.

[JAG]

Vote The Jackal

Because he's always a wolf (except last game).

[JAG]

Or you could early claim a role! How fun would that be?! :p

I laughed. :)

[Vaimes]

And there's a Godfather in play?? Goodbye.

Or you could early claim a role! How fun would that be?! :p

Oh, right!

Uh. I'm the, ah. Bulletproof Seer?

[Chief Rum]

Someone should pass me an item toNight so I can feel less boring.

For the record, items may be passed at any time, not just at the deadlines.

[fontisian]

And there's a Godfather in play?? Goodbye.



Oh, right!

Uh. I'm the, ah. Bulletproof Seer?
Cool.

I am become death, destroyer of worlds.


My goal this game is to be responsible for the death of someone. Luckily, that probably be very easy.

[Vaimes]

Oh, sweet.

Quick, everyone, funnel me your goods.

[Shoveler]

Vaimes Signature
- пора поохотиться на ведьм

Translation (via Google Translate)
- It's time to hunt for witches


Dunno Vaimes.. That was the fastest vote/unvote I've seen. Your play style is rather chaotic, and you are impossible for me to read.

Vote Vaimes

[Chief Rum]

Vote Tally (as of Post #92)

cheekimonk (1)-- timmae (80)
timmae (2)-- EagleFan (82), Vaimes (85)
Shoveler (1)-- MartinD (83)
The Jackal (1)-- JAG (89)

[EagleFan]

And there's a Godfather in play?? Goodbye.



Oh, right!

Uh. I'm the, ah. Bulletproof Seer?

Lies!!! font is the bulletproof... ;)

[Vaimes]

timmae is scum because he felt the need to justify his RVS vote.

fontisian might be a Wolf as well for not RVS'ing.

[Grover]

vote Narcizo

Because Day 1.

[Vaimes]

I guess we'll just have to lynch timmae, and then I can Cop check fontisian toNight.

[JAG]

Cool.

I am become death, destroyer of worlds.


My goal this game is to be responsible for the death of someone. Luckily, that probably be very easy.

Easiest win condition ever.

I looked over the rules again and...I don't know what would be optimal. Don't duke/shoot the seer/BG would be a good start though.

[EagleFan]

I guess we'll just have to lynch timmae, and then I can Cop check fontisian toNight.

Cop Check? You're going to tazer her and then shoot her in the back...

[Raven]

Checking in. Reading rules now.

[cheekimonk]

Checking in...Duke season. Hunter season. Duke season! Hunter season! Hunter season! Duke season, fire!!

vote Raven

[Grover]

Cop Check? You're going to tazer her and then shoot her in the back...

And then plant the tazer on her. We need to make this look like self-defense

[Raven]

vote The Jackal

[Narcizo]

Ok. I think its important we focus on getting the wolves. That seems obvious but I can easily see things devolving into a tit for tat cycle. The person due to be lynched dukes to a hunter, so the next day a hunter kills a duke, so at lynch someone dukes to that hunter ( because its safe as they know they're a hunter) etc etc. If that happens then the wolves will be doing the happy little dance as vote analysis will go out the window AND the wolves will probably not be sticking their necks out in that way.

If someone does feel the need to duke then they should probably try to duke to someone with votes - that way even if they hit a duke its all good as it will bring more clarity to the voting records with two deaths.

I'm thinking the addition of a cultist suggests 3 wolves to start. By the by.

[Narcizo]

vote Zinto

[Shoveler]

Ok. I think its important we focus on getting the wolves. That seems obvious but I can easily see things devolving into a tit for tat cycle. The person due to be lynched dukes to a hunter, so the next day a hunter kills a duke, so at lynch someone dukes to that hunter ( because its safe as they know they're a hunter) etc etc. If that happens then the wolves will be doing the happy little dance as vote analysis will go out the window AND the wolves will probably not be sticking their necks out in that way.

If someone does feel the need to duke then they should probably try to duke to someone with votes - that way even if they hit a duke its all good as it will bring more clarity to the voting records with two deaths.

I'm thinking the addition of a cultist suggests 3 wolves to start. By the by.

I would support a hunter kill on anyone that successfully dukes to a village hunter. Unless the dukee turns up a wolf I think we have to find out the alignment of the duker.

[fontisian]

Let's try to have some organization with our shots and dukings. Don't shoot or duke someone without giving them time to claim and other people time to defend or attack them. I'd prefer if early lynches aren't duked though if you feel you must, try to aim for people who have had a lot of discussion and votes about them. Remember, this is a group game. We can't all be Batman.

I'd prefer to kill Dukes over Hunters toDay and go for a Hunter toMorrow, minor win condition be damned, because Hunters can be lynched if they fail to shoot scum.

[Shoveler]

Let's try to have some organization with our shots and dukings. Don't shoot or duke someone without giving them time to claim and other people time to defend or attack them. I'd prefer if early lynches aren't duked though if you feel you must, try to aim for people who have had a lot of discussion and votes about them. Remember, this is a group game. We can't all be Batman.

I'd prefer to kill Dukes over Hunters toDay and go for a Hunter toMorrow, minor win condition be damned, because Hunters can be lynched if they fail to shoot scum.

Concur. If a village duke is in the lynch lead at the end of any day... unless you have a good read on someone to duke to.. it may be better to fall on the sword for the town and just eat the lynch.

[britrock88]

Some powerful items at play.

[britrock88]

vote Shoveler

Hi!

[Grover]

We can't all be Batman.



But I don't wanna be Aquaman!

[JAG]

Raven, no thoughts after reading the rules?

Unvote
Vote Raven

[fontisian]

I would support a hunter kill on anyone that successfully dukes to a village hunter. Unless the dukee turns up a wolf I think we have to find out the alignment of the duker.
Can I ask why the role of the person duked to (beyond their alignment, obviously) matters? Why is duking to a village hunter more suspicious than duking to a village duke?

[Shoveler]

Can I ask why the role of the person duked to (beyond their alignment, obviously) matters? Why is duking to a village hunter more suspicious than duking to a village duke?

If I read the rules correctly, a duke duking to another duke will kill the original duke and the dukee gets lynched. So that resolves itself.

[Raven]

Raven, no thoughts after reading the rules?

Unvote
Vote Raven

Yes, there are lots of rules, so haven't fully processed yet.
Plus it's Monday and Mondays are always super busy at work, so don't have a ton of time to participate yet today.

[Raven]

Concur. If a village duke is in the lynch lead at the end of any day... unless you have a good read on someone to duke to.. it may be better to fall on the sword for the town and just eat the lynch.

Why?
If village duke is the lynch, and knows they are village, wouldn't it be better to take a chance on potential wolf rather than allow yourself to be lynched (and def kill a villager)? Maybe I'm not quite understanding...

[britrock88]

Why?
If village duke is the lynch, and knows they are village, wouldn't it be better to take a chance on potential wolf rather than allow yourself to be lynched (and def kill a villager)? Maybe I'm not quite understanding...

It's the secondary game of dukes v. hunters that makes this matter. A duke can try to save himself, sure, but if he dukes to another duke, both dukes die.

[Shoveler]

Why?
If village duke is the lynch, and knows they are village, wouldn't it be better to take a chance on potential wolf rather than allow yourself to be lynched (and def kill a villager)? Maybe I'm not quite understanding...

Well the way I see this unfolding is that if the lynch leader at the end of the day is a duke player, and they do not have a strong suspicion of a potential wolf, and they use the duke ability. They have a chance of hitting another duke villager, in which case they both die and the wolves get a two kill lynch result. I guess I'm just suggesting that any dukes in the lynch lead take a moment to really consider their options, and if they don't have a good idea of who to duke to, they should just eat the lynch rather than causing more chaos for the town.

Definitely feel like we should talk about this more before the end of day one. Not saying my ideas are the way we should go, as they are just ideas at this point. But it does seem like the rule set allows for alot of chaos.

[Shoveler]

It's the secondary game of dukes v. hunters that makes this matter. A duke can try to save himself, sure, but if he dukes to another duke, both dukes die.

Yes that matters as well, but the primary game versus the wolves is also important not to sacrifice additional villagers each day.

[Shoveler]

We are focusing a lot on dukes as it will have the earliest potential impact, but the same goes for the hunters.

[Raven]

It's the secondary game of dukes v. hunters that makes this matter. A duke can try to save himself, sure, but if he dukes to another duke, both dukes die.

But there are also duke wolves, correct? So if they eliminated each other, then that would be a village gain.

[britrock88]

But there are also duke wolves, correct? So if they eliminated each other, then that would be a village gain.

I don't know that it's specified whether all wolves are dukes or hunters, or if they're interspersed. Interspersal seems likeliest...

If your "they" means dukes, then eliminating each other could nab a wolf and be a village gain. But it seems like you might not have been saying that, exactly.

[Chief Rum]

Vote Tally (as of Post #124)

cheekimonk (1)-- timmae (80)
timmae (2)-- EagleFan (82), Vaimes (85)
Shoveler (2)-- MartinD (83), britrock83 (113)
The Jackal (1)-- Raven (106)
Vaimes (1)-- Shoveler (95)
Narcizo (1)-- Grover (99)
Raven (2)-- cheekimonk (104), JAG (115)
Zinto (1)-- Narcizo (108)


Yet To Vote: The Jackal, fontisian, Autumn, Zinto, MrBug708

[cheekimonk]

Head spinning already.

[Shoveler]

Ok, I feel like I'm rambling on about this but here goes.

If a wolf is up for lynch and they have the duke ability, they will 100% use the ability to try and save themselves. At this stage of the game, the odds are about 50/50 that they pick another duke and each die.

If a (unroled) villager duke is up for lynch, and they try to save themselves, they also have the same odds, however, the odds of pulling a wolf are really bad at this point. So unless they have a strong suspicion of who the wolves might be, it would be better for the village if that vanilla duke just let themselves get lynched.

So what I am trying to convey, is that while in the past, the vanilla villagers have tried to save themselves at all costs from a lynch, in this particular game, it may be better for the entire village if that person does not use their ability, at least this early in the game.

If the dukes start eliminating themselves, the wolf duke(s) will have more escape routes from lynching later on in the game.

[Raven]

I don't know that it's specified whether all wolves are dukes or hunters, or if they're interspersed. Interspersal seems likeliest...

If your "they" means dukes, then eliminating each other could nab a wolf and be a village gain. But it seems like you might not have been saying that, exactly.

My interpretation of the rules is there are wolf dukes and village dukes. Likewise with hunters. See quote below.

So two Dukes eliminating each other could be good for the village, as there is a chance a wolf is eliminated in that scenario.



DUKES AND HUNTERS

The villagers and wolves are also split into two separate groups: the Dukes and the Hunters.

There is no tie between players being wolfs or villagers and being dukes and hunters. Every player's allegiance as a Duke or a Hunter will be assigned randomly, regardless of their allegiance as a wolf or villager.

[fontisian]

Even if a village duke kills themself and another village duke, if they're both people under a lot of suspicious, that saves us time and let's us do vote analysis the next Day. I don't see the issue.

[Shoveler]

Worst case scenario:

Day 1 lynch: Duke dukes to duke, both village (Dukes remaining 6, hunters remaining 8)
Night 1 kill: Players remaining 13 (3? wolves, 11 villagers)

Day 2 hunter kill: Hunter kills hunter, both die, both village (Dukes remaining 5-6, Hunters remaining 5-6)
Day 2 lynch: Duke dukes to duke, both village (Dukes remaining 3-4, hunters remaining 5-6)
Night 2 kill: Players Remaining 8 (Dukes 2-4, hunters 4-6)

Day 3 hunter kill: Hunter kills hunter, both die, both village (Dukes remaining 2-4, hunters remaining 2-4) Players remaining 6... Wolves hit parity.

[Shoveler]

Even if a village duke kills themself and another village duke, if they're both people under a lot of suspicious, that saves us time and let's us do vote analysis the next Day. I don't see the issue.

In that case I agree, that would be best. All I'm getting at is that a duke pulling a name out of a hat isn't in the best interest of the village. Not sure that a day 1 duke is either to be honest.

[The Jackal]

We can't all be Batman.

I am the Batman.

[The Jackal]

VOTE GROVER

[The Jackal]

DRAAAAAAINAGE.

[The Jackal]

If I was a wolf I'd be shitting myself every deadline with the potential chance of a duke play EVERY day.

[The Jackal]

Going to do some potentially interesting things to the voting - if a wolf duke is in the running early on, other wolves don't necessarily need to avoid them because they can duke at the end - so if they die first, vote analysis might be harder.

[EagleFan]

Worst case scenario:

Day 1 lynch: Duke dukes to duke, both village (Dukes remaining 6, hunters remaining 8)
Night 1 kill: Players remaining 13 (3? wolves, 11 villagers)

Day 2 hunter kill: Hunter kills hunter, both die, both village (Dukes remaining 5-6, Hunters remaining 5-6)
Day 2 lynch: Duke dukes to duke, both village (Dukes remaining 3-4, hunters remaining 5-6)
Night 2 kill: Players Remaining 8 (Dukes 2-4, hunters 4-6)

Day 3 hunter kill: Hunter kills hunter, both die, both village (Dukes remaining 2-4, hunters remaining 2-4) Players remaining 6... Wolves hit parity.

We can't worry too much about duke versus hunter or the wolves win while we are running around looking for revenge on the other team.

[EagleFan]

Going to do some potentially interesting things to the voting - if a wolf duke is in the running early on, other wolves don't necessarily need to avoid them because they can duke at the end - so if they die first, vote analysis might be harder.

Wouldn't that hold true to any wolf?

[EagleFan]

Sorry, posting on phone which I hate. Will be on laptop later.

[Shoveler]

Wouldn't that hold true to any wolf?

Yep, a duke wolf could duke for any of them I would imagine.

[The Jackal]

Right, good point. Even more implications.

[Shoveler]

Yes, both the hunters and dukes are revealed when their actions result in public consequences.

Keep this in mind. If someone else dukes besides the person in the lynch lead we will be notified about who pulled the duke.

[Raven]

If somene casts a vote and then is shot before lynch, their vote no longer counts, I assume? Seems logical, just want to confirm.

[The Jackal]

Keep this in mind. If someone else dukes besides the person in the lynch lead we will be notified about who pulled the duke.

Thanks. This is helpful.

[Chief Rum]

If somene casts a vote and then is shot before lynch, their vote no longer counts, I assume? Seems logical, just want to confirm.

A vote, once cast, will continue to count after the player is killed.

[The Jackal]

From the grave, so to speak

[JAG]

Good stuff folks.

Unvote
vote fontisian

Surprised no vote from her yet and not sure about her strategy above. Seems like a good way to off a seer or BG, or inadvertently killing a seer scan, or giving a duke wolf cover for their 'random' duking.

[Shoveler]

Good stuff folks.

Unvote
vote fontisian

Surprised no vote from her yet and not sure about her strategy above. Seems like a good way to off a seer or BG, or inadvertently killing a seer scan, or giving a duke wolf cover for their 'random' duking.

Something about font today is off for me as well. I'm not ready to move my vote quite yet though as it's still plenty early.

[fontisian]

Good stuff folks.

Unvote
vote fontisian

Surprised no vote from her yet and not sure about her strategy above. Seems like a good way to off a seer or BG, or inadvertently killing a seer scan, or giving a duke wolf cover for their 'random' duking.
How exactly would it give cover for "random duking"?

[EagleFan]

Something about font today is off for me as well. I'm not ready to move my vote quite yet though as it's still plenty early.

I'm afraid to respond to this... :D

[EagleFan]

So far only one vote looks odd to me, Vaimes immediate unvote and piggyback onto my vote. But I have a feeling that odd moves (at least as I see it) will be the norm for him.

[fontisian]

Nah, Vaimes is town, as per usual.

[timmae]

Ok, long day at work. Did a quick reread to get up to date. I like what I have seen from font, narc, shoveler, Brit, EF and jag. Vaimes seems like normal vaimes. Cheeki, Grover and raven to a smaller extent seem a bit quiet but I havent read them well and/or they have been in tough positions the last few games. Jackal seems the most pingy so far.

unvote cheeki
Vote jackal

[EagleFan]

Always interesting that she immediately declares Vaimes town. If he is town again I can't wait to see what the tell must be for her to know so certainly about him on day one each game.

[JAG]

How exactly would it give cover for "random duking"?

Well, true, you weren't talking about 'random' duking, just duking to someone that had group suspicion. I stand by my other points though. Can I ask why you haven't voted?

[EagleFan]

Goal Jets!!!

(sorry, don't have a horse in the race :( but love the playoffs)

[fontisian]

Well, true, you weren't talking about 'random' duking, just duking to someone that had group suspicion. I stand by my other points though. Can I ask why you haven't voted?
Nothing stuck out to me until that post of yours and timmae's most recent post. I'll make a serious vote when I have a serious vote to make.

Explain your other points, then. How exactly would my strategy risk offing a town power role?

[The Jackal]

Jackal seems the most pingy so far.

unvote cheeki
Vote jackal

What has been pingy?

[The Jackal]

Are you anti-batman and/or daniel day lewis?

[timmae]

Are you anti-batman and/or daniel day lewis?

Didn't get the 2nd reference. Probably just thrown off by the shorter posts and quick vote. And my shitty day at work. Not much else to go on in my first read through.

[Zinto]

My name is Zinto and I am here to say, that I am here to rap in a werewolf way.

[Zinto]

Vote Vaimes

[Zinto]

Are we looking to be cautious with our duke/hunter abilities? I think that anyone who is the top vote getter will duke out(it just seems like the thing someone would do) and I agree with whoever said that we should at least discuss a duking or hunter shot before hand.

[Shoveler]

Are we looking to be cautious with our duke/hunter abilities? I think that anyone who is the top vote getter will duke out(it just seems like the thing someone would do) and I agree with whoever said that we should at least discuss a duking or hunter shot before hand.

I guess there are a couple potential ways for the village to win in this game.

1. The village lynches the wolves
2. The village shoots the wolves
3. The village lynches and shoots the wolves.

Now, if a vanilla villager is about to be lynched today, and they duke to a village hunter. The original vanilla villager is going to look suspicious, and most likely be lynched the next day. So in this situation, the village loses valuable time.

If someone other than the lynch leader dukes at the end of the day, that person is going to look suspicious and will be lynched on the next day.

Now, we could also assume that the person that was revealed as having duked could be shot by a hunter on the next day before the lynch, thereby saving the lynch vote for the village. But due to the rules regarding the first hunter using their ability is the only one for the day, we can't rely on having the duke shot dead to reveal their alignment.

Unless someone can offer up a good counter assessment of these abilities, I believe using either of them early in the game has a greater chance of hurting the village simply due to the odds of hitting other villagers.

As to font's point about hitting roled villagers, the odds are about as good as hitting a wolf. So at this point it is most likely that using these abilities end up clearing out the vanillas.

Typing this is probably moot. I would suspect the same as zinto that a vanilla duke is going to use their ability to save themselves and bend over the village in the process. But maybe we get lucky.

[JAG]

Let's try to have some organization with our shots and dukings. Don't shoot or duke someone without giving them time to claim and other people time to defend or attack them. I'd prefer if early lynches aren't duked though if you feel you must, try to aim for people who have had a lot of discussion and votes about them. Remember, this is a group game. We can't all be Batman.

I'd prefer to kill Dukes over Hunters toDay and go for a Hunter toMorrow, minor win condition be damned, because Hunters can be lynched if they fail to shoot scum.

Ok, reading this I agree with what you're saying. I was too focused on part two of what you were saying without this context. I personally don't agree that not voting early is a good idea though. But so be it.

[JAG]

I guess there are a couple potential ways for the village to win in this game.

1. The village lynches the wolves
2. The village shoots the wolves
3. The village lynches and shoots the wolves.

Now, if a vanilla villager is about to be lynched today, and they duke to a village hunter. The original vanilla villager is going to look suspicious, and most likely be lynched the next day. So in this situation, the village loses valuable time.

If someone other than the lynch leader dukes at the end of the day, that person is going to look suspicious and will be lynched on the next day.

Now, we could also assume that the person that was revealed as having duked could be shot by a hunter on the next day before the lynch, thereby saving the lynch vote for the village. But due to the rules regarding the first hunter using their ability is the only one for the day, we can't rely on having the duke shot dead to reveal their alignment.

Unless someone can offer up a good counter assessment of these abilities, I believe using either of them early in the game has a greater chance of hurting the village simply due to the odds of hitting other villagers.

As to font's point about hitting roled villagers, the odds are about as good as hitting a wolf. So at this point it is most likely that using these abilities end up clearing out the vanillas.

Typing this is probably moot. I would suspect the same as zinto that a vanilla duke is going to use their ability to save themselves and bend over the village in the process. But maybe we get lucky.

The only problem is late in the game we may have issues where the wolves can force a win with a hunter snipe or duke it to a villager. There's a lot more urgency to find wolves ASAP because we need to bring their numbers down before it gets too close for comfort. Assuming 3 wolves, 4-3 or 5-3 might be enough to force a win.

[cheekimonk]

Sorry. Been at an overpriced restaurant that's apparently an "institution" in this city. Good steak. I agree with below...vanilla village duke taking one for the team seems to be the best play D1. D2? Maybe.

[MrBug708]

Checking in guys! Sorry Im late to the game (kinda) as I'm in another wWW game on another board right now.

[Shoveler]

The only problem is late in the game we may have issues where the wolves can force a win with a hunter snipe or duke it to a villager. There's a lot more urgency to find wolves ASAP because we need to bring their numbers down before it gets too close for comfort. Assuming 3 wolves, 4-3 or 5-3 might be enough to force a win.

If we let the ratio of hunters/dukes become unbalanced then yes that becomes an issue.

[fontisian]

Ok, reading this I agree with what you're saying. I was too focused on part two of what you were saying without this context. I personally don't agree that not voting early is a good idea though. But so be it.
It's unusual for you to miss an important detail like that when you're voting.

[MrBug708]

I have no idea what I'm doing this game. I hate Day 1's as I usually look stupid, trying to figure out everything.

[britrock88]

Checking in guys! Sorry Im late to the game (kinda) as I'm in another wWW game on another board right now.

"In" as in "GMing and creating a WW community from scratch"? :p

[britrock88]

This is a fairly long D1 as far as this board's concerned. And I was just one of 5(!) N1 NKs in my other game, so more time for this one! ...after I finish with meetings in the morning.

[britrock88]

^
"This is a fairly long D1" meaning "I'm not surprised this thread isn't multiplying like rabbits yet."

[MrBug708]

"In" as in "GMing and creating a WW community from scratch"? :p

Mostly :)

[EagleFan]

Quick thought before I get some sleep.

Not a fan of the Vaimes vote but he has done a few things that make me wonder about him each day one so far.

Why font keeps coming to his defense is puzzling me but again, that has been every day one it seems.

timmae seems a little confused so I will leave my vote where it is for now.


I have little else at the moment. Sorry, have been working on getting the legs together for TAR 2. I think when that game is done I will post my spread sheet that I have been using trying to track the timing of each stage. Not sure if I am insane or not, you can decide.


If anyone wants to pass me an item I can start my trust list... just sayin'


I'd prefer to kill Dukes over Hunters toDay and go for a Hunter toMorrow, minor win condition be damned, because Hunters can be lynched if they fail to shoot scum.

That is kind of like saying we prefer to kill wolves over villagers today. It's not like we have a say in what we are killing today (duke or hunter).

[MrBug708]

Vote - Fontisian

The waiting to vote is curious enough to me and I'm not sure who else to vote. Being around and not voting (as someone mentioned) is also an eyebrow raising action. And I'm still sore from the Brienne of Tarth character killing Lord Karstark off!

Personal note - I should have checked the deadline times better as I'm a teacher on the west coast. Luckily lunch is from 1220-1pm, so I should be able to monitor it fairly well, just reception sucks in both my classroom and the staff lounge.

[Vaimes]

She's defending me because she knows I'm town, and by that I mean she's probably on the scumteam.

[Narcizo]

Unless someone can offer up a good counter assessment of these abilities, I believe using either of them early in the game has a greater chance of hurting the village simply due to the odds of hitting other villagers.


Ooo-oooh! I can! I can!

Every kill guided by a villager is, on balance, beneficial to the village. Also, you know how votes normally go - there's always going to be two or three at risk in the lynch. That means the village roles will have a lot of warning that they're at risk and should reveal if they're in the mix. Then the person to be lynched (if duke) should duke to the next vote-getter. If we're lucky we get a two-for-one lynch and we find out the allegiance of two of the top vote getters. If we're unlucky then the duke survives. Next day a hunter can take them out so we don't have to pfaff around voting for them, unless the person duked to was a wolf, and then we can reconsider.

This means that we accelerate the effectiveness of the lynch - the village's primary tool for information-gathering.

Things for which people should be lynched or, ideally, day-killed are using a duke power to save someone else. Actually according to my scheme you should be day-killed for using the duke power at all, unless you hit a wolf, in which case things can be assessed based on that.

There is a risk that this kills dukes, but the clever thing about the rules is that for every duke that's killed the hunters' power becomes less potent (as there's more chance of a hunter hitting another hunter with a day-kill), while the duke's power becomes more useful.

So my guideline is - a duke to be lynched should duke to the next vote-getter. If he hits a villager then he should be day-killed the next day if he survives.

[fontisian]

Is there any merit to having everyone claim Hunter or Duke? It prevents scum from accidentally shooting into the people that hurt them, but it also allows us to better organize town shots/dukes (and there are more of those).

[Narcizo]

Is there any merit to having everyone claim Hunter or Duke? It prevents scum from accidentally shooting into the people that hurt them, but it also allows us to better organize town shots/dukes (and there are more of those).

I'm kind of thinking that there isn't. At the moment I think the wolves will be steering away from day-kills (at the very least). If they know who they can hit then they will be much more likely to use a kill. I imagine a wolf duke is going to duke and take his chances as he has nothing to lose. If he knows who not to duke to then he's going to do that and force the village to use up one of its day-kills.

There's also the risk that knowledge of allegiance is going to influence voting because of the minor victory conditions.

[Narcizo]

Happy with my Zinto vote at the moment. There's always something to discuss in a game like this - keeping quiet just seems defensive.

[Narcizo]

Sorry. Been at an overpriced restaurant that's apparently an "institution" in this city. Good steak. I agree with below...vanilla village duke taking one for the team seems to be the best play D1. D2? Maybe.

I've finally realised why you say "below" all the time when what you actually mean "above". And it's not that you're from New Zealand. So I shall now turn my Holmsian detective powers to the task of finding the wolves.

[cheekimonk]

I've finally realised why you say "below" all the time when what you actually mean "above". And it's not that you're from New Zealand. So I shall now turn my Holmsian detective powers to the task of finding the wolves.

Ahh...sorry. I use Tapatalk on my iPhone quite often and, for threads with a ton of replies, it's much more convenient to put latest on top vs. bottom. My apologies, folks. Carry on...

[Narcizo]

Nothing to apologise for. I just thought I was going mad(der) or something.

[JAG]

It's unusual for you to miss an important detail like that when you're voting.

I guess it's a red letter day then. I haven't voted seriously to this point anyway, mostly wanting to get some discussion going and ask questions of those I have. I'm a little weirded out by people following my votes though.

Unvote

[JAG]

Ooo-oooh! I can! I can!

Every kill guided by a villager is, on balance, beneficial to the village. Also, you know how votes normally go - there's always going to be two or three at risk in the lynch. That means the village roles will have a lot of warning that they're at risk and should reveal if they're in the mix. Then the person to be lynched (if duke) should duke to the next vote-getter. If we're lucky we get a two-for-one lynch and we find out the allegiance of two of the top vote getters. If we're unlucky then the duke survives. Next day a hunter can take them out so we don't have to pfaff around voting for them, unless the person duked to was a wolf, and then we can reconsider.

This means that we accelerate the effectiveness of the lynch - the village's primary tool for information-gathering.

Things for which people should be lynched or, ideally, day-killed are using a duke power to save someone else. Actually according to my scheme you should be day-killed for using the duke power at all, unless you hit a wolf, in which case things can be assessed based on that.

There is a risk that this kills dukes, but the clever thing about the rules is that for every duke that's killed the hunters' power becomes less potent (as there's more chance of a hunter hitting another hunter with a day-kill), while the duke's power becomes more useful.

So my guideline is - a duke to be lynched should duke to the next vote-getter. If he hits a villager then he should be day-killed the next day if he survives.

It's a higher risk strategy than playing it safe because it accelerates our timeline required to win though. We'll get more information per lynch, but have fewer total showdowns. I would rather agree to saying we should have the duke lynch to the next highest vote getter than pick a random target though, so that way even if we screw up, we get some decent info. Let's make sure we vote wolves that being the case.

[cheekimonk]

Nothing to apologise for. I just thought I was going mad(der) or something.

Trust me, it's harder for me translating the other way. Especially for posts that use "^" to reference the previous post.

[cheekimonk]

Surprised no vote from her yet and not sure about her strategy above. Seems like a good way to off a seer or BG, or inadvertently killing a seer scan, or giving a duke wolf cover for their 'random' duking.

I can buy this...especially from a vet.

unvote Raven
vote fontisian

[JAG]

^
"This is a fairly long D1" meaning "I'm not surprised this thread isn't multiplying like rabbits yet."

Agree with this, surprised there's been so little chatter since there seems to be a lot more to talk about rule/strategy wise than our last game.

[JAG]

I can buy this...especially from a vet.

unvote Raven
vote fontisian

Did you read the part afterwards where I called myself an idiot and admitted I misrepresented her strategy?

[cheekimonk]

Did you read the part afterwards where I called myself an idiot and admitted I misrepresented her strategy?

I read, but apparently misunderstood. Playing catch up in the early morning. For a D1 vote it feels good, though. Some others do but I'll leave it there for now.

[Grover]

Morning guys! Playing catch up from 5PM yesterday til now.

[Zinto]

I know Narcizo is all for the extra kill for the village. I don't know how ofter I agree with that but it will be interesting to see how it plays out.

I don't think that anyone who dukes out of being lynched should immediately get suspicion either. There is a better chance it is just a villager duke than a wolf duke.

[Zinto]

Also villagers in second or third with an hour or so to go should be revealing. There are a bunch of dukes in this game. You are likely to get killed if you do not and toss your role away.

[JAG]

I read, but apparently misunderstood. Playing catch up in the early morning. For a D1 vote it feels good, though. Some others do but I'll leave it there for now.

That makes no sense to me. It feels good even though you misunderstood?

Vote cheek

I have three meetings before deadline. I'll be on around lunch and then possibly off til post-deadline unless a meeting gets out early.

[cheekimonk]

There is a better chance it is just a villager duke than a wolf duke.

Why is that? Just numbers?

[Zinto]

What is everyone's thoughts on taking hunter shots? We have talked a lot about the should you duke aspect but I haven't seen a ton of hunter talk. Are we going to use it to gain more clarity in voting history? Are we going to ask everyone to refrain from using it for a few days?

[Zinto]

Why is that? Just numbers?


Yep

[cheekimonk]

That makes no sense to me. It feels good even though you misunderstood?


Ok. It doesn't feel any worse than anyone I have a gut feel on. Some folks I have nothing one way or the other. Some folks I feel are on the radar though they haven't tipped village or wolf yet. It's a long D1.

[Grover]

unvote
vote fontisian

The surety of Vaimes being town is one reason I have for this vote.

[Narcizo]

I don't think that anyone who dukes out of being lynched should immediately get suspicion either. There is a better chance it is just a villager duke than a wolf duke.

But ... but ... we're presumably voting for someone because we think there's more chance than average that that person is a wolf. Them duking that vote away doesn't suddenly make those doubts go away. So, no, they shouldn't get MORE suspicion (unless they vote to a random) but as the suspicion they were getting was enough to get them lynched then it only seems right that they should be killed, barring a radical change in data (for example information from the seer). In a normal game the value of the duke is almost exclusively in creating a cleared villager. In this game it doesn't have that value.

So if you feel that accelerated lynching is the way forward and you're a duke then duke it to the next vote-getter. If you don't think that, don't use your duke at all. My guess is every duke will be using it hoping that they hit a wolf.

[Narcizo]

Agree with Jag on the pinginess of what Cheeki said and did. I suspect it might be a confused villager rather than a wolf play but that's always difficult to judge.

[timmae]

Just checking in before leaving for meetings today. I haven't seen a reason to switch up my vote as of yet. Jackal seems "off" but I am not reading evil. Lacking further evidence elsewhere I will keep my vote on him. I like that bug is around and hope to see more of his thoughts. I am reading good font this game. Not quite as abrasive but her tone is similar to what I have seen from good font. She seemed more helpful as neutral/evil in the rebirth game.

[Zinto]

But ... but ... we're presumably voting for someone because we think there's more chance than average that that person is a wolf. Them duking that vote away doesn't suddenly make those doubts go away. So, no, they shouldn't get MORE suspicion (unless they vote to a random) but as the suspicion they were getting was enough to get them lynched then it only seems right that they should be killed, barring a radical change in data (for example information from the seer). In a normal game the value of the duke is almost exclusively in creating a cleared villager. In this game it doesn't have that value.

So if you feel that accelerated lynching is the way forward and you're a duke then duke it to the next vote-getter. If you don't think that, don't use your duke at all. My guess is every duke will be using it hoping that they hit a wolf.


It sounded like we were getting to the point where it would be a foregone conclusion we would lynch the person who duked the day before. I am not sure if that is always going to be the right play.(I know that we won't always do that but it just doesn't seem smart.)

[Shoveler]

Just checking in before leaving for meetings today. I haven't seen a reason to switch up my vote as of yet. Jackal seems "off" but I am not reading evil. Lacking further evidence elsewhere I will keep my vote on him. I like that bug is around and hope to see more of his thoughts. I am reading good font this game. Not quite as abrasive but her tone is similar to what I have seen from good font. She seemed more helpful as neutral/evil in the rebirth game.

I couldn't disagree with you more. While I dont trust my own instincts in this game yet, font does not sound like usual font to me. Confident, aggressive villager font would not (in my mind) suggest everyone reveal their duke/hunter affiliations. I realize she was asking a question about it, but putting the idea out there feels like an evil play.

I'm not ready to back up my statement with a vote, I could very well be 180 degrees off target here.

[cheekimonk]

My guess is every duke will be using it hoping that they hit a wolf.

FWIW, I'm village and I wouldn't duke out of a lynch. Not going to duke someone out of a lynch, either. Just not enough info for more than hunches on D1 and I'm still too green to trust those too much.

[Zinto]

FWIW, I'm village and I wouldn't duke out of a lynch. Not going to duke someone out of a lynch, either. Just not enough info for more than hunches on D1 and I'm still too green to trust those too much.


Okay you hunter;)

[fontisian]

I've actually got town reads on Vaimes, Jackal, Cheeki and Narc, do let's not lynch in that group.

There's a good chance JAG is scum, but I'm going to give him a break for toDay and see if he turns out useful.

Vote Grover
Hi. Your vote is weak. This is your chance to justify it better.

[fontisian]

Oh, timmae's also on the possible scum I'm watching but would feel bad (but not that bad) about lynching for his tryhardiness.

[The Jackal]

Anyone have a vote count?

[The Jackal]

My initial thoughts after reading the roles were to try and set guidelines that we could get a general consensus on in the thread without revealing factions, primarily in terms of when hunters should use their kills .. but I think it's going to be too much of a clusterf*ck to try and organize that.

[The Jackal]

I can see merit in what Narcizo was proposing about a hunter using their kill on a duke that dukes to a village hunter, but I also have a nagging suspicion that it will be much easier for wolves to avoid poor votes (or what would look poor in retrospect a few days later) with 1-2 dukes in their pocket.

[The Jackal]

And there's always the rogue factor. Plenty of hunters and dukes have made questionable plays in other games when there was a game-wide one-time use..

[britrock88]

the clever thing about the rules is that for every duke that's killed the hunters' power becomes less potent (as there's more chance of a hunter hitting another hunter with a day-kill), while the duke's power becomes more useful.

The same would be true for hunters if we prioritized killing them, too.

[britrock88]

Is there any merit to having everyone claim Hunter or Duke?

It'd basically ruin the minor VC that's in play.

[The Jackal]

It'd basically ruin the minor VC that's in play.

And, assuming full disclosure, would rule out a wolf duke/hunter killing themselves by hitting their own faction. I'd rather have that be a possibility to f with their decision making.

[britrock88]

It's a higher risk strategy than playing it safe because it accelerates our timeline required to win though. We'll get more information per lynch, but have fewer total showdowns.

Quick thought to add to this: is there any suspicion that the wolves might have amped-up or tamped-down versions of duke/hunter powers, rather than the standard powers that most of us have? The rules do reference some quirks...

[The Jackal]

Some of the certainty people are showing towards others allegiances on D1 in the last few games has been kind of astounding, to me

[britrock88]

I don't think that anyone who dukes out of being lynched should immediately get suspicion either.

It's more about information (read: vote tallies) than suspicion, per se.

[Narcizo]

but I also have a nagging suspicion that it will be much easier for wolves to avoid poor votes (or what would look poor in retrospect a few days later) with 1-2 dukes in their pocket.

I'm not following you. Why would it be easier than usual for them to avoid "poor votes"? What difference do the dukes make?

[The Jackal]

Quick thought to add to this: is there any suspicion that the wolves might have amped-up or tamped-down versions of duke/hunter powers, rather than the standard powers that most of us have? The rules do reference some quirks...

I donno, with a cunning and brutal and 6 items, there's a lot of different scenarios that could play out without the wolf team having any other bonuses. Do you have any ideas about what that would look like? I think most of the unknown stuff for this game will be in relation to order of actions if there are conflicting ones.

[Narcizo]

Some of the certainty people are showing towards others allegiances on D1 in the last few games has been kind of astounding, to me

I read it as hyperbole. Danny did it a lot as well.

[The Jackal]

I'm not following you. Why would it be easier than usual for them to avoid "poor votes"? What difference do the dukes make?

"Poor" in terms of votes that we'd normally look at as avoidance, once we know people's allegiances, especially once we (hopefully) nab the first wolf. On D1/D2 they don't have to be as careful about not voting each other or staying away from runs, or pushing other candidates.

Now, this is definitely dependent on which wolf would be in the running because if a wolf duke who wasn't in the vote had to use their power, that'd certainly look suspicious.

Mostly I was just saying that I don't think vote analysis will be as useful as it is in other games. As we move on in the game yes, it'll become better - but not necessarily early on.

[Grover]

Some of the certainty people are showing towards others allegiances on D1 in the last few games has been kind of astounding, to me

Ditto.

That's the reason for my vote on font. She is so sure on Vaimes being a villager. Either she has a tell on him that none of us know, or she's blowing smoke up our collective butts.

I feel like it's impossible to be 100% certain on Day 1.

[fontisian]

Grover: 1. Vaimes is a close friend irl.
2. I've had just a strong a townread on him last game.

[The Jackal]

I read it as hyperbole. Danny did it a lot as well.

Maybe. But it's also kind of distracting - hyperbole is one thing, trying to push others away from voting certain people D1 is another. Not saying it's coming from wolves, necessarily, just feels muddy and strange.

[The Jackal]

Unvote Grover

[Narcizo]

Well I think that you worries are what my hunter kill the duke scheme would take care of. It basically take the problem of duking out of the game by gauranteeing the death of the duke (particular if the duke is used to save someone else).

I can see situations where the wolves might be able to duke for someone else towards end game so we better make sure we catch some wolves before we get to that stage.

[The Jackal]

I think Shoveler has been pretty helpful, so definitely avoiding him D1. I've been off on my read of cheek in multiple games so I'm not going to get into reading his D1 comments at this point either because I don't trust myself with him.

[The Jackal]

Well I think that you worries are what my hunter kill the duke scheme would take care of. It basically take the problem of duking out of the game by gauranteeing the death of the duke (particular if the duke is used to save someone else).

I can see situations where the wolves might be able to duke for someone else towards end game so we better make sure we catch some wolves before we get to that stage.

Best laid plans could be shot to shit by items as well, though. I'd also think you'll find some hunters hesitant to blow their ability early in the game, especially with items out there that can stop it.

[Narcizo]

Maybe. But it's also kind of distracting - hyperbole is one thing, trying to push others away from voting certain people D1 is another. Not saying it's coming from wolves, necessarily, just feels muddy and strange.

Well that depends - maybe on day one but day two I, for example, pushed quite hard to not lynch Eagle last game. I prefer that people come out with this stuff rather than not say anything at all as it reveals possible connections and allegiances. And it tends to engender discussion and activity. Obviously I'm not saying that it's always good but rather that than people posting "quiet day today" all the time. Wear your heart on your sleeve and all that.

[The Jackal]

Truth, I'd always rather see it more active!

[fontisian]

Maybe. But it's also kind of distracting - hyperbole is one thing, trying to push others away from voting certain people D1 is another. Not saying it's coming from wolves, necessarily, just feels muddy and strange.
If you're going to talk to me, then talk to me.

I'm confident enough in my town reads to state them and try to give them some protection toDay. That's a pretty low bar. What precisely is your issue with it?

More to the point, why exactly are you unvoting Grover when his vote is based on something that did not bother him in the past couple ganes?

[The Jackal]

If you're going to talk to me, then talk to me.

I'm confident enough in my town reads to state them and try to give them some protection toDay. That's a pretty low bar. What precisely is your issue with it?

More to the point, why exactly are you unvoting Grover when his vote is based on something that did not bother him in the past couple ganes?

Why do you guys capitalize the D and M in today and tomorrow, by the way?

And it's not just you, but yes, you do seem to come out with strong reads on D1. And I'm saying this even with you reading me as town - I find it hard to get strong reads early so maybe that's just something I need to get better at.

It'd also be one thing for you saying Vaimes is town if we knew you were good - but we have no idea what allegiance you are, so it's mostly empty words. But certainly good to know your thought process.

As far as unvoting Grover, I never intended my vote to stay there and I don't mind the posts I've seen from him thus far. Seems a little different than when he was a wolf, though maybe he's just learning :devil:

[The Jackal]

vote timmae

[Grover]

Grover: 1. Vaimes is a close friend irl.
2. I've had just a strong a townread on him last game.

Okay.

I consider Jackal a good friend. I don't go out making bold claims that someone is village/otherwise based on my relationship with a player outside of the game.

2. This is a new game. Maybe it's a similar read in his play style, fine. I just find the completely certainty strange. That's just me.

[Grover]

I'm just a purist when it comes to playing a game and I find it head scratching when people invoke reasons outside of a game for something or another

[The Jackal]

Grover I will say that one difference in me and you vs font and vaimes is that it seems they've played WW together a lot, so it makes a little more sense that they'd be able to read each other. But I still struggle with what to make of that info on D1.

[Grover]

Grover I will say that one difference in me and you vs font and vaimes is that it seems they've played WW together a lot, so it makes a little more sense that they'd be able to read each other. But I still struggle with what to make of that info on D1.

Oh, I've taken that into account. Clearly if you're playing against someone on a weekly basis, you're going to eventually have a decent read on them.

[fontisian]

Oh, I've taken that into account. Clearly if you're playing against someone on a weekly basis, you're going to eventually have a decent read on them.
No, you clearly haven't.

If you really have a problem with my ability to read Vaimes, why didn't you say something in any of our prior games?

[The Jackal]

More to the point, why exactly are you unvoting Grover when his vote is based on something that did not bother him in the past couple ganes?

By this do you mean that he didn't vote you because of a townread on Vaimes in previous D1's? I'd have to go back and look, but I feel like I wasn't the only one struck by that.

I'm not at the point where I want to vote you over it, and like I said before I'm interested in seeing everyone's thought process because it forces wolves to make up reasons for voting people, but I know that I'm slightly turned off by early D1 town reads.

[The Jackal]

Seems like we've heard at least a little bit from everyone? Good start.

[Grover]

No, you clearly haven't.

If you really have a problem with my ability to read Vaimes, why didn't you say something in any of our prior games?

Because my logic can be as screwed up as I want it to be.

And because I hadn't noticed it as ardently as this time around.

[Autumn]

Just checked in and saw game is on. For some reason Gmail buried my notification. Catching up now ...

[britrock88]

And, assuming full disclosure, would rule out a wolf duke/hunter killing themselves by hitting their own faction. I'd rather have that be a possibility to f with their decision making.

http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt69/Keld_fs/Borat-VeryNice.gif

[britrock88]

Some of the certainty people are showing towards others allegiances on D1 in the last few games has been kind of astounding, to me

Indeed. Seems to be a matter of personal playstyle, though.

[Chief Rum]

Anyone have a vote count?

Morning folks!

I will have a vote count up shortly.

[britrock88]

No, you clearly haven't.

If you really have a problem with my ability to read Vaimes, why didn't you say something in any of our prior games?

I think he was a wolf last time... Alignment can often affect reactions to common WW themes/discussions/actions, of course.

For instance, I understand the way you present D1 reads and interact with Vaimes and would call your townread of Vaimes alignment-neutral.

Grover, who, as you pointed out, didn't react to the above in the previous game, where he was a wolf, is now pinged by this. Seems better than neutral to me.