Video demonstrating a flaw in the ai

[jmik58]

This video provides further proof of the core issue with football video games.

There is no Read and React aspect to the game that involves the vision of defensive players.

The point that is being made here is the exact same one made in the thread about psychic db's (http://www.operationsports.com/forum...t-defense.html)

It has everything to do with programming logic that needs a sophisticated upgrade.

Another good video to help point out the single biggest issue with the NCAA video game franchise. This is the core of gameplay and it needs to be fixed.

Every other bug is important, but this is gameplay. The reason the game is made and played by a vast majority of gamers.

[dougbenefield66]

Quote: Originally Posted by TomBrady

He is complaining for absolute no reason, and here is why: First play: The safety sees that the tight end is engage a block, and of course knows that it's a running play. Nothing wrong with that. When he changes to PA the tight end does not engage a block, but runs a route, and therefore the safety goes in to zone coverage. When he flips the run it's really easy to read what way the running back will run. A count would work perfectly here, just like IRL. Again the tight end is the reason that he knows it's a running play. People really need to stop complaining for no reason. Most safeties/linebackers in college football would make these reads fairly easy.

Dude you obviously know nothing about football. Reading a TE down block and then selling out total run (especially when you are a SS in zone coverage) is terrible defense technique. The most basic PA pass play has TE blocking down to sell the run and the releasing to the pylon on a flag pattern for a pass. This is a classic "Flood" play. As for reading the OL blocking pass the line of scrimmage....the Safetly clearly does not wait long enough to do that....he just crashes in like a blitz.

In other words...a classic TE release PA...The TE actually goes down like a block on the LB ...bumps him and then releases....the Safety waits to see none of this...on the run...just crashes in.

[falconfansince81]

Quote: Originally Posted by pendo

I doubt ea would hate versuz, they hate apex and the rest of the sim standard people, but versuz is in no way a homer for any company. It's funny how people think that because he (they) is on youtube, he (they) must hate ea. This is a fundamental issue, like the other guy said, all they can do is tone it down for now. Come on new engine ea!

funny how you can insert the sim standard to that equation as well. versuz fanboys aside, people like him and the folks at TSS do a great job in not just pointing these issues out but they can make great visual points and counter points to how it has been done right before. a huge problem is just poor and improper player technique coupled with a lack of transitional animations and adaptive AI...i'm sure ea is aware, and hope they realize its a must fix for future games.

[Old School SD Fan]

Quote: Originally Posted by bamaboy082

I've seen pre-play recognition countless times by the AI in my dynasty. I don't think this is just a practice mode issue. I thought the video was spot on because I've seen those same type things in my offline dynasty.

If you don't believe the CPU knows your plays, wait until you see them setting up for a blitz then audible to pass from the same formation if you called run, run if you called pass. Do it back and forth a few times.

Even though your formation does not change you'll see the CPU D realign each time you audible back and forth. Maybe not every time, but I had it happen to me last night. SO friggin' obvious the programming was cheating me, and this was on Varsity.

[shttymcgee]

Quote: Originally Posted by dougbenefield66

Dude you obviously know nothing about football. Reading a TE down block and then selling out total run (especially when you are a SS in zone coverage) is terrible defense technique. The most basic PA pass play has TE blocking down to sell the run and the releasing to the pylon on a flag pattern for a pass. This is a classic "Flood" play. As for reading the OL blocking pass the line of scrimmage....the Safetly clearly does not wait long enough to do that....he just crashes in like a blitz. In other words...a classic TE release PA...The TE actually goes down like a block on the LB ...bumps him and then releases....the Safety waits to see none of this...on the run...just crashes in.

NO, NO, NO!

The safety in the video is responsible for the flats, not a deep zone. He is also the force defender vs the run. He is a run first player. When the TE/Wing block, the safety should run forward and force the run.

The WLB is playing the same exact position in the defense to the other side. He is the force-flat player.

Why would a flat player slow-play anything that wasn't 3rd and long? He wouldn't. You are the one that is mistaken. There is a big difference between a flat player and a deep zone defender. A half-field safety would certainly have to wait to see if the TE released or not, but not a curl-flat safety.

I agree that the AI in this game is out of whack, in a lot of ways; but this video shows absolutely nothing. It is not unrealistic, only in the fact that the safety's tackling was pi**-poor.

[Broncos86]

Quote: Originally Posted by shttymcgee

NO, NO, NO! The safety in the video is responsible for the flats, not a deep zone. He is also the force defender vs the run. He is a run first player. When the TE/Wing block, the safety should run forward and force the run. The WLB is playing the same exact position in the defense to the other side. He is the force-flat player. Why would a flat player slow-play anything that wasn't 3rd and long? He wouldn't. You are the one that is mistaken. There is a big difference between a flat player and a deep zone defender. A half-field safety would certainly have to wait to see if the TE released or not, but not a curl-flat safety. I agree that the AI in this game is out of whack, in a lot of ways; but this video shows absolutely nothing. It is not unrealistic, only in the fact that the safety's tackling was pi**-poor.

I'll quote what I said on page two, since it appears you didn't read what I said.

Quote: Originally Posted by Broncos86

This is inaccurate because AI players do not "see" these things. Safeties in-game do not read offensive linemen or other players. This is not how the game is programmed. The safety is not watching the TE to see what he does, nor is he watching for pulling guards or which direction the tackle comes off the line. Understand something, players in Madden do not have "vision." They do not have eyes that actually "see" what players are doing. What's in front of them or behind them is irrelevant to how a player makes a decision. This is exemplified through DBs and WRs that make catches w/o ever looking at the ball. Any eye contact that a player makes is purely cosmetic for our sake. Anyone who suggests or believes that defenders are reading the linemen or the shoulders of a running back, or the eyes of a WR are kidding themselves or sorely misinformed. On play-action, the CPU is making a simple number check to see if he is "fooled" by the play-action or not. It's simple math, Football Dungeons and Dragons.

[shttymcgee]

Quote: Originally Posted by Broncos86

I'll quote what I said on page two, since it appears you didn't read what I said.

It doesn't really matter why it ended up the way it did to me. The fact that it is displayed correctly is what matters.

How do defenders in man to man "know" who to cover in the game?

How do defenders "know" if someone is in their zone or not?

Anyway, I was responding to the post that said that it didn't display fundamental football, when it obviously did.

[shttymcgee]

Quote: Originally Posted by Broncos86

I'll quote what I said on page two, since it appears you didn't read what I said.

I should've paid attention before i replied the first time.

Did you mean to quote me?

What in my post was ever about anything you said, anyway? Unless you mean the whole "reading and reacting" thing.