UFC Performance Institute Study --- Lessons for UFC 3 & Beyond?

[DaisukEasy]

Quote: Originally Posted by aholbert32

Your telling me that an elite athlete cant throw 500 strikes in a 25 minute period (with 4 1 minute breaks) without gassing when his opponent does nothing?

If you're literally a heavy bag, then obviously they can. But given average footwork (so making someone miss at least half the time simply by moving out of range), yes, people punch themselves out. Happens all the time.

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Do you think Conor gasses on a heavy bag?

It's not the same.

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Conor doesnt have the best gas tank in the world but the reason he gassed in the past does have something to do with what his opponent does.

Nate didn't do anything special. He walked backwards the majority of the first round in their first fight, jabbing Conor and avoiding the counter by not moving forward (mostly). Conor gassed himself by throwing counter power punches at someone who wasn't going to walk into them.

Nate didn't butcher him with body shots nor did he go full Matrix. It was basic footwork and distance management coupled with an overly aggressive opponent and a below average gas tank.

In the second fight Conor used leg kicks to nullify Nate's range advantage. This allowed him to connect way more than he did in their first fight, but even then he was still showing visible signs of fatigue at the end of R2.

So what did Nate do? Did he move his head a lot? Not really. Did he pepper him with body shots? He threw a few body jabs, but nothing extremely noteworthy. Oh, he also got knocked down multiple times. Still, because he weathered the storm, Conor got tired and Nate gained a stamina advantage.

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In Diaz 2, it was because of the body strikes (Diaz focused a 3rd of his strikes to Conor's body).

Conor was already tired by the end of R2.

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My issue is that other things like strike output and misses caused by simple movement or blocking dont drain enough stamina.

We agree on this at the very least.

[DaisukEasy]

Quote: Originally Posted by ryangil23

Yes. He was gassing on the bags in his open workout before the mayweather fight hahaha

Really? That's actually pretty funny.. xD

[Phillyboi207]

Quote: Originally Posted by aholbert32

Your telling me that an elite athlete cant throw 500 strikes in a 25 minute period (with 4 1 minute breaks) without gassing when his opponent does nothing? Do you think Conor gasses on a heavy bag? Conor doesnt have the best gas tank in the world but the reason he gassed in the past does have something to do with what his opponent does. In Diaz 2, it was because of the body strikes (Diaz focused a 3rd of his strikes to Conor's body). Same with Mayweather. He was tired against Mendes because Mendes made him grapple (Conor has one of the lowest grapple stamina ratings in the game because of it). My issue isnt that the game forces you to do things to drain your opponent's stamina. My issue is that other things like strike output and misses caused by simple movement or blocking dont drain enough stamina.

I think the biggest thing that’s being overlooked is the adrenaline and stress of fighting another person attempting to hurt you.

That alone will tire you out if you’re not in the correct mental state. There’s no added stress when hitting a heavy bag.

Adrenaline dump is a real thing. That’s why there are some athletes that look amazing during practices but cant perform during a real fight (or game)

[ZHunter1990]

Quote: Originally Posted by Phillyboi207

I think the biggest thing that’s being overlooked is the adrenaline and stress of fighting another person attempting to hurt you. That alone will tire you out if you’re not in the correct mental state. There’s no added stress when hitting a heavy bag. Adrenaline dump is a real thing. That’s why there are some athletes that look amazing during practices but cant perform during a real fight (or game)

Adrenaline dumps are certainly real, but competitors learn how to these avoid dumps over time as they compete more often.

Things like blocking, movement, shift in direction on the drop of a dime, tensing up for a strike, all play a factor as well irl and they dont ingame.

[ZHunter1990]

Quote: Originally Posted by DaisukEasy

I wish it was BS. I didn't save the video though. Let me stop your right there. His opponent shouldn't have to do anything. Conor simply cannot throw 100+ strikes every round for 5 rounds. Even if his opponent is taking an ungodly beating with no footwork or head movement, he will either knock his opponent out early or he gasses in less than two rounds. That said, my opponent was mostly using footwork and blocking. Used a bit of head movement, but mostly went for safe defensive options. It should've been enough given the ridiculous output. The CTE part is true. But people want to win. If throwing that much was as risky as it is in real life, not for your career but for that particular fight, people wouldn't do it as recklessly. The point is to compare stats at the highest level. Them cheesing doesn't matter so long as it's an accurate representation of high level play. If the stats show a disparity between UFC3 high level statistics and real life stats then that's useful information. Then do it for Ranked, LEC and UT to show the contrast between those modes as well as real life. If you're throwing at 10% power because you're sparring, sure. In an actual fight? I can't say I believe that..

I didnt say sparring or fighting. I can hit a heavy bag 600 times with quite a bit of power in 25 minutes without gassing. I think its fair to assume that most people in good shape could also.

My point is that strike output alone, 600 strikes is possible without gassing. When you add in movement, blocking, getting hit, grappling..etc that number start dwindling.

[aholbert32]

Quote: Originally Posted by Phillyboi207

I think the biggest thing that’s being overlooked is the adrenaline and stress of fighting another person attempting to hurt you. That alone will tire you out if you’re not in the correct mental state. There’s no added stress when hitting a heavy bag. Adrenaline dump is a real thing. That’s why there are some athletes that look amazing during practices but cant perform during a real fight (or game)

So should the game implement an adrenaline feature? How would that work?

I've been asking questions and making suggestions about stamina for months now. What I've discovered is there may not be a middle ground.

Take Boiler's suggestions:

* +10% Stamina Tax for Blocked Strikes; to balance this, blocked strikes cause 10% more damage to Blocking Power - Comp players will argue that any increased stamina tax on blocked strikes will encourage camping. Casual fans (who solely rely on blocking as their main defense) will complain that more bleed through will lead to quicker KO's and rocks.

* +25% Stamina Tax for Missed or Evaded Strikes - Comp players have been complaining for months that people just sit back and bait whiffs simply to lower their opponents stamina. They will argue that this will just encourage people to do more of this and will continue to make the first 2 rounds of fights situations where people will only fight conservatively to bait whiffs and get a stamina advantage.

* +100% Stamina Tax for Missed Takedowns (but also make it a bit easier to score takedowns....as they're too difficult right now IMO). Grapplers will complain that this is another nerf to an area that has already been nerfed and that grapplers dont gas significantly just from missing takedowns.



Here is one I've suggested:

- Nerfing between round perm stamina regen and lowering or eliminating the stamina perks that artificially increase stamina regen for certain fighters. Comp players claim the game will become even more conservative than it is with people just throwing 1 and 2 punch combos so they dont blow their stamina.

- More bleedthrough on the block: Again casual fans will see more quick knockdowns and will likely become frustrated with the game.

- Sliders or a sim stamina mode in ranked: High Level players believe it will split the already small user base in ranked and it will be harder to find matches.

I'm sure there are other ideas but I'm not sure there are any that will convince the high level comp players or the devs who are concerned about casual play.

Offline players are good. We have sliders that can make stamina more realistic and forces the player and AI to fight at a reasonable pace. Online seems to cater more to ranked players and if they are adamant that the suggested changes to stamina will make the game worse...I dont know if stamina is gonna change much.

[DaisukEasy]

Quote: Originally Posted by ZHunter1990

Things like blocking, movement, shift in direction on the drop of a dime, tensing up for a strike, all play a factor as well irl and they dont ingame.

They should.

[DaisukEasy]

Quote: Originally Posted by ZHunter1990

I didnt say sparring or fighting. I can hit a heavy bag 600 times with quite a bit of power in 25 minutes without gassing. I think its fair to assume that most people in good shape could also.

I already said that heavy bags are different. But if we're to believe an earlier poster, Conor actually got tired on the heavy bag..

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My point is that strike output alone, 600 strikes is possible without gassing. When you add in movement, blocking, getting hit, grappling..etc that number start dwindling.

I meant during an actual MMA fight obviously. So all of the things you just said are assumed even in a completely one-sided fight.

Quote: Originally Posted by aholbert32

So should the game implement an adrenaline feature? How would that work?

God no.

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I've been asking questions and making suggestions about stamina for months now. What I've discovered is there may not be a middle ground.

Revamping stamina isn't as easy as just increasing the stamina tax. It affects a lot of different areas of the game that would need to get reworked as well sadly..

I agree with you that there may not be a middle ground.

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* +10% Stamina Tax for Blocked Strikes; to balance this, blocked strikes cause 10% more damage to Blocking Power - Comp players will argue that any increased stamina tax on blocked strikes will encourage camping. Casual fans (who solely rely on blocking as their main defense) will complain that more bleed through will lead to quicker KO's and rocks.

Right now people are overly aggressive anyway. So a bit more hesitancy isn't a bad thing if you ask me.

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* +25% Stamina Tax for Missed or Evaded Strikes - Comp players have been complaining for months that people just sit back and bait whiffs simply to lower their opponents stamina. They will argue that this will just encourage people to do more of this and will continue to make the first 2 rounds of fights situations where people will only fight conservatively to bait whiffs and get a stamina advantage.

Also increase tax for head movement. That way the aggressor can also bait head movement and drain the defender. X empty leans drains as much as one dodged hook.

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* +100% Stamina Tax for Missed Takedowns (but also make it a bit easier to score takedowns....as they're too difficult right now IMO). Grapplers will complain that this is another nerf to an area that has already been nerfed and that grapplers dont gas significantly just from missing takedowns.

Tell that to Maia.