What are true 2K fans doing right now?

[Rickster101]

Quote: Originally Posted by HMcCoy

Hello Kushmir! Here's what Ea can do for me. Most of these have been stated, so consider this embellishment. You said you're new to the game, so most of this will be redundant for 2K vets, but will hopefully be helpful to you. -TV-style presentation. 99.9% of all football gamers' experience with professional football is watching it on television. Sooooo...If a game perfectly mimics what I see on TV, then my little brain will more closely associate what's going on in the game to "real" football. Pretty simple, huh? Madden goes a different direction with their presentation though, which IMO, fails to capture the feel of what football is supposed to look like. Example...After a play, Madden's presentation sometimes shows an extreme low-angle close-up of a player jogging. Idle players have never been presented like that in reality, because the cameraman would have to run out on the field, kneel down, and crawl backwards to get that shot...LOL. There's nothing wrong with the cut scene itself, but it doesn't serve to tie the game to what my perception of how real football looks...which kills the immersion. 2K's presentation goes a looooooooooooooong way to doing that with their cut scenes, half-time shows, replays and camera views. Madden has light years to go to catch up. Even the dirt kicks up in 2K. Realistic player models. Maddens proportions are silly. Heads & arms too big, legs too skinny. The uniforms look spray painted on. Everyone looks thick and stubby. Since I'm sure Tiburon's artists have taken and passed anatomy classes in their college careers, I assume that its not that they don't KNOW how humans are shaped, but rather that Ea’s R&D has found that exaggerated, super-human models appeal to some kind of "target demographic". I dunno. Whatever the reason, its not good enough. 2K's R&D had a different view. The models have evolved beautifully over the last 5 years. The progression from the hunched-over, big-arm models from the Dreamcast days to what we have now is excellent. Still a little boxy around the torso, but they still capture the look of real pro players. Animations. EA needs to literally quadruple their animations. I can't stress that enough. Just play a quarter of 2K and after ever snap, go in and watch the QB. Some guys (Vick) sling the ball side-armed. They actually stop, switch stance, and bounce on rollout plays. They pat the ball, and stay on their toes while scanning the field when in the pocket. They follow through on their throws. After a quarter, go back and watch Madden's QB's. Their animations are awkward, the ball comes out sideways, and everyone throws the same. 2K has animations for losing footing, getting faked out, hand-fighting at the LOS between DB and WR, a billion blocking animations...the list goes on and on and on. Don't get me started on the depth of the juke system. Look at the difference throwing animations at both MVP and Live. These enhance both the visual, and strategic elements of the game. Knowing whether or not my WR comes off cleanly to the inside on a slant route is important, no? Unscripted gang tackling/tackle trees. Big one here, maybe the biggest. Every "tackle" animation can be adjusted by additional contact, and seamlessly link into a 2-man tackle animation. There are even 3rd level interactions where a 3rd guy can come in and link the pile into a 3-man mo-capped animations, depending on the angle. Sometimes its awesome to behold. Madden's two-man animations look pretty good, but they're totally scripted and proximity based instead of being based on the extra tacklers's inertia, momentum and direction. It "feels" so good to come in with a safety and stop an RB's momentum from letting him fall forward for the first down. As an extra bonus, it makes it that much more rewarding when you can fall forward for extra yards (due to pressing the Y button, another thing Tiburon "borrowed" this year), instead of it being a given, based on the initial tackle animation. This component, (along with great animation interactions in the trenches) is what makes running up the gut so enjoyable in 2K. This is the next logical evolution of tackling physics and animations, so I fully expect EA to eventually implement this. They better, because it makes playing defense IMMENSELY more involving. It forces you to play angles, and think containment...vs. Maddens "seek-and-destroy" tackling philosophy. Again, that is huge. Playbook terminology. Small thing here, but 2K's playbooks seemed to be a lot more diverse. However, it's an optical illusion of sorts, because a HB Dive is a HB Dive, no matter what you call it. However, the team-specific formations and terms breathe life into the play-calling aspect of 2K. Again, it's about immersion, and perception...and 2K is the king of both. Also, the ability to choose D-line assignments is extremely helpful, and eliminates the need for "playmaker" controls up front. Slip and Slide physics This relates to animations, and may help you understand "Mario running". Player movement in Madden isn't tied to it's animations. So if I run into the back of an O-Lineman, his running animation doesn't coincide with the fact that he isn't moving, hence the ridiculous running in place we often see... The positive aspect of this is that it allows Tiburon to implement a smooth feel, because the animations never get in the way of movement, but the downside is that the sudden movements that would severely affect a 200+ lb man in full motion aren't represented. The simplest way to put it is that if I'm running full speed, to stop, I'll need to lean backwards and stutter step to slow myself. Similarly, if I'm running, and someone’s in my way, I wouldn't turn my entire body 90 degrees, my momentum would force me to hop to the side while still facing forward. That’s not in Madden. At one point it wasn't in 2K either, hence the perception that 2K was stiff and robotic. That’s why we love VC. We complained about it, and viola, within 2 years of development, the feel is completely smoothed out...another reason our fanbase is so loyal, if not overzealous. The cutbacks and "get skinny" animations are sublime. I call those transitional animations, because they transition running animations into subtle adjustments, and back again. Its funny, Tiburon has begun to implement them in NCAA, but not Madden. At least they finally ported over the long-awaited head-tracking and the "looking back for the ball" run animation. Commentary. Needs to be re-written from the ground up, and feature professional voice-actors. Guys who won't mind putting in 1000+ hours of speech. Understandably, you can only get so much from TV personalities..especially ol' Johnny. These guys aren't ready to put in an animated movie's worth of sound. B-list commentators broadcast most NFL games, so losing Michaels/Madden wouldn't be much if it were replaced by realistic comments based on in-game occurrences. That’s the major areas that 2K have over Madden, IMO. To be fair, 2K had a major flaw as well...the DB play. Too many animation misfires, and spotty AI have hampered this franchise for years. Corners that suddenly look like they've hit a patch of quicksand, poorly times INT attempts...all frustrating shortcomings. Also, their off-the-field modes always seemed to have some kind of major bug. IMO, this is where Madden really shines, with excellent Owner and vastly underrated Superstar modes, the mini-games, and enough fluff to satisfy the hardest of hardcore gamers. Overall, I'd say for EA to completely win me back over they need to simply watch a football game with a pad and pen in hand...and stuff everything they see into the game. Then I'd be happy.

Holy VC Batman are you seeing this! Thats it Doc I'm nominating you as chief developer in charge of all aspects you've nailed but for me I have played
the Madden game and even though it is not as polished a product as the great and addictive 2k series it does has some features that I find of interest and for me could improve even more on.

What you've stated does hold merit but I've been playing Madden for years and this years release has shown inprovements not as we'd like to have seen but all the same some improvements.

I'm a 2K guy through and through but in this case I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt to EA and forgive some of its short comings after all its a little difficuilt trying to chase or catch a Comet by the tail...its not too bad but if they've decided to eliminate the competition they should have taken the "Spoils" of war and just copied 2Ks better attributes since they won't be using them anymore (for the time being) which is where they've come up on the short end.

Its always been that way under these kind conditions...as in in war and fierst negotiations, to the victor go the spoils they should have use what they er, uh removed from the market (it was all business)...VCs ideas and innovative features...my guess is they didn't want people to think they just copied 2K so they really blew a great opportunity to grab those "Spoils Of War".

As far as what I'm doing...playing Football of course its all good for me but I am going to miss 2K6 this year but then still I have a whole world opening up with the 2K series and plenty of files and features to keep me going and still room for some Madden.


Holla Back y'all
Rickster101

[Mossfan8480]

Quote: Originally Posted by Rickster101

its not too bad but if they've decided to eliminate the competition they should have taken the "Spoils" of war and just copied 2Ks better attributes since they won't be using them anymore (for the time being) which is where they've come up on the short end.

Great post HMcCoy!

While I am enjoying Madden this year, its still missing many of the things 2K had that made it so great. If they do what you suggested here with the 360 version or with next year's Madden then I might just go to the door step of each person who helped create the game and kiss 'em ...

Rickster, they definitely need to "steal" those attributes as too many players in Madden are rated so close together and play way too similar. In the 2K games every player felt like an individual and had a personality. You just don't get that when you play the current Madden games. I'm hoping they implemented more attributes in the 360 version as it would really be a breath of fresh air.

[Rickster101]

Quote: Originally Posted by Mossfan8480

Great post HMcCoy! While I am enjoying Madden this year, its still missing many of the things 2K had that made it so great. If they do what you suggested here with the 360 version or with next year's Madden then I might just go to the door step of each person who helped create the game and kiss 'em ... Rickster, they definitely need to "steal" those attributes as too many players in Madden are rated so close together and play way too similar. In the 2K games every player felt like an individual and had a personality. You just don't get that when you play the current Madden games. I'm hoping they implemented more attributes in the 360 version as it would really be a breath of fresh air.

Actually I was refering to the style and package that the 2k series inspired as in the "Total Package" and innovative ideas they've bought to how we precieve Football video games...for example the "TV Style Presentation" its use of "Witty and Smart" commentary those "Priceless cut scenes" and timely replays and the list goes on and maybe even those attributes relating to players but thats one we've given them a little slack on due to what happen in 2K4 with those "Break Away" backs but thats an easy fix simply lower them and you''ll see the difference in the game still though they were better then what the competition had out at that time IMO.

I guess you'd say with all that has transpired and happened over this trek to Madden 2006 I would have thought they'd come out with something that would really change my mind as to what direction the series (Madden) was heading towards and now the handwriting is on the wall...the intention was never to re-introduce the series to the now current platforms but onwards to greater horizons and that would be the "Future" of video gaming as we know it...ladies and gentlemen (ladies if reading this post) I present to you the future of video gaming coming soon to a platform near you XBOX 360 and the ps3 ETA last confirmed this Nov. or next Spring which ever comes first.

For now enjoy what you have and hold onto your favorites soon these will be classics and we'll all be awed by next gen games and platforms...now this will change things and very soon for 2K and Madden fans alike.

Personally I think 2K has the edge as their game illustrates by fans who still continue to dable with is friendly editing base which leaves it open for future possibilities as in guys here on the net and eleswhere still tweaking on the 2K series going as far back as 2K3 according to what I've seen at just this one site alone and others spring up to keep the series afloat until its return which itself is still a question but 2K is so far ahead and advanced that maybe EA does need a head start to catch up...funny how I said that,when you look back and think about it perhaps 2K was the future in a sense.

Imagine the possibilites if none of this exclusive deal every happened whose future would you say had the upper hand and potential as far as producing the "Ultimate" video Football game

The future is now has been said before but in looking at 2k as a series it was the one actually moving foward and towards the "Future" and as far as I'm concerned it really hasn't left only delayed, I'm still enjoying Madden but for now things are so-so.


Holla Back y'all
Rickster101

[NovaStar]

On top of everything that you guys have written, the one thing that really, and I mean really draws me in, is the replays and halftime/postgame show. I mean, to sit back at half time and watch your performance and the computers performance, and to hear boomer actually commentating the action is simply a thing of beauty. I never miss the half time show (I sometimes miss the post game because I get so pissed at losing that I automatically hit the button before the post game hi lites.) You get to see the qb drop back, bounce, and deliver. Or you get to see the cut backs, spin and juke moves, simply unbelievable to me.

Oh, yesterday Kurt Warner gets sacked and then he tries to get up and goes back on the ground and the trainers come out and ask what day is it. He stumbles to the sideline and he was diagnosed with a concussion, out for the year (5th game of the season). I laughed because it looked so real, and I had never seen that before. This game is timeless, man.

[TLizChosen]

Quote: Originally Posted by Kushmir

first and foremost this is not a negative thread... i'm an actual Madden fan wondering what you guys are doing with 2K not developing a game this year? are you boycotting madden? willing to give it a try? playing 2K with updated rosters? have you played NCAA football? was it comparable to 2K or was it horrible? did it turn you on or off towards madden? and why?more importantly, how are you guys coping? i'm an avid fan of 2K's NBA series (as it is the far and away NBA SIM leader) and i can't imagine how i would have felt had LIVE "outbid" them for exclusive rights (and i doubt i would have played LIVE now that i think about it--it would have been a step back) but i pride myself on being objective and after trying2K last year....to me Madden was likewise the "far and away "leader on the gridiron.. but thats just an OPINION... more importantly, what options are you die-hard 2K guys using? and more importantly, what could EA do to convert you? thanks guys, Kushmir

I am playing Madden and will get 360 and move on to Next Gen Madden