Running after catch game needs serious work.

[wwharton]

Seriously. When you include the bombs then I'm really thinking you're just doing something wrong. The bombs are a bit too floaty, I agree but most of the fly routes I complete have the guy run for a TD if a WR, another 10-20 yards if it's a TE. Last year I could see this claim b/c guys got run down but I don't know what you guys are doing. I rarely use max passing on the fly routes too b/c the QBs I tend to use aren't very good but Payton to Harrison on a fly with a little max passing and if the DB isn't glued to him then he's gone... if the db is glued to him he may still be gone.

[LBzrule]

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wwharton said:
Seriously. When you include the bombs then I'm really thinking you're just doing something wrong. The bombs are a bit too floaty, I agree but most of the fly routes I complete have the guy run for a TD if a WR, another 10-20 yards if it's a TE. Last year I could see this claim b/c guys got run down but I don't know what you guys are doing. I rarely use max passing on the fly routes too b/c the QBs I tend to use aren't very good but Payton to Harrison on a fly with a little max passing and if the DB isn't glued to him then he's gone... if the db is glued to him he may still be gone.

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Exactly. And it is much easier against the A.I than 2 player because the A.I never speed bursts on defense to keep up with you. YOu can abuse them at will if they line up in man coverage.

[Blue_Monkey]

The deep bomb is one thing. The sliders have a lot to do with this. As does the level of play. Just curious, what's youe current level of play, cairo?

But I'm mainly talking about shorter routes designed to go for YAC. This means drags, flats, screens, outs and maybe very short hooks and hitches. When you throw to a WR running across the field 5 yards from the LOS with nobody glued to him, I see it like this: I throw the ball and he catches it but the easy catch takes about a second before I gain control of the player. During that second the inhuman tackle abilities/reaction times come in effect as the defender tackles me before I have time to move the stick. Doesn't really matter how many yards there is between the receiver and the closest tackler cause the defender is always right there when the catch is made anyway. Another matter here is that the game doesn't have any momentum. I don't want to turn this to no Madden comparison, but some momentum would be important in determining whether the tackler or the ball carrier has the advantage. Like is the ball carrier able to take advantage of the defender's momentum and juke him or run past him. Or does the defender have the upper hand cause he's coming from a good angle with good speed and the ball carrier doesn't have much options.

The inhuman abilities/reaction times/physics/catch animations might not work the same way in every situation. Like the stiff arming of LBs by a WR. Also some stuff can be taken advantage of as in there are glitches in the game. This is what you're talking about when you say you can audible to a hitch when the other team is in cover 3 and so on. Player skills are obviously another matter.

But speaking generally, the slow catch animations, the fact that defenders are always right beside you when you gain control and are able to go to a tackle animation is what results in inrealistic play when an easy catch is being made in very good space. I believe you if you say that you can do this and do that every time but these shouldn't be in the game anyway and must be taken care of. But the fact that these kinds of plays are possible now shouldn't make you think "OMG what if YAC were made even easier".

Take away the sometimes ridiculous break tackles especially by WRs and add faster catch animations with physical laws to defenders. Combine the last two with frequent swarming of the ball carrier and we instantly have a more realistic game. YAC would then be possible not perfectly using Max passing and some break tackle bugs. And this without the game being turned to a catch-and-run fest.

[wwharton]

monkey, that's what i was responding to the first time. had to raise an eyebrow to the comment on bombs but your complaint, i can see where you may be coming from but still don't have the problem. as always, i think it can be improved but i don't have the problem you do. i'm thinking you may be throwing your passes a little too late. if you throw it right as the WR breaks the defender is often offbalance for a second. if you wait, they regain position. is it possible that may be it? it's hard to imagine much without seeing how you play.

[Blue_Monkey]

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wwharton said:
...but your complaint, i can see where you may be coming from but still don't have the problem. as always, i think it can be improved but i don't have the problem you do. i'm thinking you may be throwing your passes a little too late. if you throw it right as the WR breaks the defender is often offbalance for a second. if you wait, they regain position. is it possible that may be it? it's hard to imagine much without seeing how you play.

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That's possible. I really believe you and LBRulz when you say you don't feel this YAC problem. You probably have the timing just right so that there is separation when the catch is made plus other things. What I'm saying though is that this shouldn't necessarily be the case. Not saying anything should be easy but it shouldn't always require a perfectly timed and placed ball just to be able to try and run after the catch. These are professional football players.

And this is associated with the tackling dynamics. A WR makes the catch on a short hook with his CB 2 yards away from him a little off balance cause he didn't expect such a short route or something. So the WR can make a quick, easy catch and the defender has to wait for the WR to come at him and try to drag him down, cause he doesn't have the momentum or strength to tackle the WR in this case. He can't just run forward and try to hit cause the WR will just run past him. This is how the angle and momentum affects the players in this particular situation. This is one part of personal skill on defense. There are lots of other examples but let's get to that later, maybe. So the WR starts running and what happens next depends on his physical abilities, the defender's physical abilities and on how much help the defender has. Now in the game I just see the defender running right in to tackle and A)he shouldn't try and do that, B)he shouldn't be able to do that.

Btw, just to clarify things (not that anyone has misunderstood anything) running after catch can mean anything from a 5 yard little run to a 95 yard rip. The word running just has a sound of running freely in the secondary.

[cairo140]

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Blue_Monkey said:
The deep bomb is one thing. The sliders have a lot to do with this. As does the level of play. Just curious, what's youe current level of play, cairo?

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I adjust the sliders myself to try and make the game more like real life. I guess I was wrong to defer my personal opinions to the general population because I don't use slider settings like most of you. Coverage is turned a notch down max for both teams, and passing is turned to a half for me (a third for the computer). Also, most of the time, I'm playing against a human opponent, so even if my QB makes a throw with robotic precision downfield, it's hard to complete. I will definitely say that that long game against the CPU is pretty easy in the sense that you can speed burst them to death. I'm trying right now to adjust the sliders so that all routes work well with momentum, and act as they do in real life. If you look at a hitch route ran in real life, you will see that YAC is impossible 99% of the time. In trying to get the crossing route YAC down, I think I've gotten that pretty accurately (Maximum Passing helps a lot). To make a vague relationship, I play my passing offense down 2 or 3 clicks compared to the defense, my running offense down 1 or 2 clicks compared to the defense, the pursuit for both teams at 6 clicks, my kicking at 5 clicks, and the CPU kicking at one click.

[wwharton]

well you can't really criticize a game for how it plays after you've adjusted sliders. basically you adjusted the game to create the problem you're having. i play 99.99% of my games with other humans but have played my share of games with the CPU. My feelings have proven true in my situatoins with both.

Monkey, at the end of the day this is still a video game. Like I said, I agree that some things need to be worked on but there's a fine line they have to work with. Without taking all other factors into account, if they just made the adjustment you're asking for I could probably complete 90-100% of my passes a game and throw for an average of well over 300 yds if I wanted. They make you get the timing down to combat that. It is realistic that you should throw the ball at the time the WR is most open and necessary for a video game to reward you for doing this and punish you for not recognizing this small window.

[Blue_Monkey]

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wwharton said:
Monkey, at the end of the day this is still a video game. Like I said, I agree that some things need to be worked on but there's a fine line they have to work with. Without taking all other factors into account, if they just made the adjustment you're asking for I could probably complete 90-100% of my passes a game and throw for an average of well over 300 yds if I wanted. They make you get the timing down to combat that. It is realistic that you should throw the ball at the time the WR is most open and necessary for a video game to reward you for doing this and punish you for not recognizing this small window.

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Well ,yeah, this is kinda tough to talk about because of this. It wouldn't have to be like this but it's possible. It would need a lot of balancing. Dunno if it's even possible right now.