7 New IGN Vids

[illidan]

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spankdatazz22 said:
I understand your concerns about the offensive line; and to a small degree I agree. There are times in the videos that OL don't get their hands on rushers. It's not perfect. But in general, the OL show great technique in extending their arms to engage a DL. And I think it's FAR better than Madden's lock up/suction block that occurs between OL/DL in that game.

When I look at the videos, it seems the OL integrity is broken down when someone takes control of the QB - which happened on seemingly every play in the IGN videos. I'm not calling the IGN guys idiots or anything like that - I LOVE that they're giving us all this gameplay footage. In many ways, they're vids look better than ESPN's vids. But I think if you look, the OL react differently when the QB is moved in a way that isn't "expected", meaning in a direction that's not built into the play. I'm guessing the OL in ESPN are programmed in a way to form a pocket, and engage defensive players in a complicated way. Not trying to bring up Madden too much, but in that game the OL seems programmed differently; to engage a specific person. That's why I assume it's so easy to set up nano-blitzes in Madden, because certain movements will always make the OL react in a certain way.

The IGN guys constantly tried to get away from the pocket - they'd start moving around before the pocket even formed. Madden players use that movement to manipulate defenders into blockers. In ESPN, you're more effective on offense if you call a play, KNOW what patterns your receivers are running, and make your reads accordingly. In Madden, most players simply try to buy enough time for someone to get open. Madden is the easier system to grasp. What's funny is people try to make that simplicity to mean more realistic, when it only means that it's easier to do what they want. I love that in ESPN, when I call a play I'll be more successful if I know the pattern every receiver is running, I assume like a real QB would. And like in a real game, I have to sit in the pocket and trust that my OL will give me time to hit [whatever] receiver.

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OK so your saying you should not take over the QB and just press the controller in a certain direction and make a pass? I do not agree with that I think you should be able to take control of the player.

You are right on the QB jukes movie http://www.espnvideogames.com/news/m...p?id=580&gid=7

the guy controlling the Thumbstick does not move the left thumbstick at all.

Your breakdown of the madden system is awesome In madden the o-line covers the corners better, knows where the QB is at in the pocket better, and will make better reads on defenders trying to make a move to the outside. THey also pancake defenders that try to just run around them or run over them.

[warnerwlf98]

ESPN's OL does form a pocket nicely.

I was playing 2K4 in practice mode, just to get the feeling of staying in the pocket and hanging in there. I let the CPU perform my dropback then I just stood in there as long as I could and moved up when the pocket started to collapse. It's amazing how much time you can buy just by moving around in the pocket even when it looks like you're a gonner.

Granted, I admit I can't pay attention to who's open and mind the quarterback and his situation at the same time (maybe I'm a little coordination-challenged videogamewise), but it feels pretty nice that passing is realistic in this way.

[Kanobi]

I believe IGN has an early build of the game and I'm assuming many builds have been done since or at least I hope so.

The Q&A with Shawn Lee touches on some new blocking animations which, based on the IGN vids, I hope were still being written in after that build. I think the Oline's footwork and overall animations need a serious upgrade because right now I swear it almost seems like they are backpedaling off the LOS in trying to set and that's garbage.

Anybody watch the Chappelle Show? The Olinemen animations remind me of that dude that's always doin the Robot. Seriously, watch how they move and you'll no doubt agree. We all know that's not how NFL Olinemen move in reality...it's not even close. I and many others were beggin for these anims to be overhauled last yr but I guess there just wasn't time to do it with QB anims and New running/transitional anims being a concern as well.

Also, it seems in the IGN vids that whenever the the user takes control of the qb, the oline starts movin in slo mo while the defenders are still moving at top speed. Hope that's been addressed.

But overall I'm hoping for some revamped Oline animations ..if not this yr then definitely 2k6 as well as the further reduction in the occurences of the braindead blockin where the Olinemen just watches a guy go around him...regardless of the qb drop. Revamped anims and tweaked AI might do the trick but who knows. Just gotta wait for the final version of 2k5.

[Daudr]

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ZXLT said:
Damn. I only watched the first one, the Eagles-Vikings one. Are the others any better? 90 MB of guys doing Maddenesque 15 yard drops with their QBs and getting sacked every play.

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I don't understand why people insist on calling this "Maddenesque." It's poor football play no matter what game you play.

[jrivera34]

In a way I am glad that the two guys playing drop back so far and get sacked. It hopefully shows that this bull won't fly for the cheese ballers online.
And as someone mentioned about me, don't call it Maddenesque. Neither game is cheesy, it is the players that make it that way.

[spankdatazz22]

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illidan said:

Your breakdown of the madden system is awesome In madden the o-line covers the corners better, knows where the QB is at in the pocket better, and will make better reads on defenders trying to make a move to the outside. THey also pancake defenders that try to just run around them or run over them.

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Not really understanding your point. The O-line play in Madden borders on horrible. ESPN is at least a generation ahead of what Madden is doing in terms of OL/DL interaction. Again, I think the way ESPN does their OL is just a more realistic representation of what goes on in football. While I was still playing Madden last year, I remember reading over at VG Sports you could gain an advantage on an offensive tackle simply by using a fast DE and moving him a couple yards off the LOS. Why do you think there aren't many DL stunts in Madden? Because the OL can't handle them. You said in Madden, the OL "knows where the QB is better" - how should that be? If a QB calls a play that calls for a 3-step drop, and the QB instead decides to roll out - you're saying the OL should automatically know?

In ESPN, you have to be much more mindful of your playcalling. You can't call a short passing play, come up to the LOS, and arbitrarily decide "hey, I feel like throwing it deep instead". You either have to change the play or deal w/the consequences. In Madden, you have the freedom to do whatever you want - playcalling isn't important because you can completely change a play without even audibling. The depth of drops does't matter, because it's all about using QB movement to buy time for someone to get open.

My son doesn't like ESPN simply because it doesn't allow him to do whatever he wants. In Madden, he can call whatever play and not necessarily feel bound to running it the way it's intended. In ESPN, that isn't the case. Not saying Madden is crap or anything like that - just saying it's a different approach. Personally, I prefer the more realistic take of ESPN than the freedom that you're given in Madden as far as the OL goes. It's not perfect, but it's far and away the best out there.

[NYJets]

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Daudr said:

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ZXLT said:
Damn. I only watched the first one, the Eagles-Vikings one. Are the others any better? 90 MB of guys doing Maddenesque 15 yard drops with their QBs and getting sacked every play.

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I don't understand why people insist on calling this "Maddenesque." It's poor football play no matter what game you play.

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I think people call it "Maddenesque" because Madden doesn't really punish you enough for it. In these videos they were getting killed. In Madden if they did that they'd be pretty successful.

[wwharton]

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illidan said:

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spankdatazz22 said:
I understand your concerns about the offensive line; and to a small degree I agree. There are times in the videos that OL don't get their hands on rushers. It's not perfect. But in general, the OL show great technique in extending their arms to engage a DL. And I think it's FAR better than Madden's lock up/suction block that occurs between OL/DL in that game.

When I look at the videos, it seems the OL integrity is broken down when someone takes control of the QB - which happened on seemingly every play in the IGN videos. I'm not calling the IGN guys idiots or anything like that - I LOVE that they're giving us all this gameplay footage. In many ways, they're vids look better than ESPN's vids. But I think if you look, the OL react differently when the QB is moved in a way that isn't "expected", meaning in a direction that's not built into the play. I'm guessing the OL in ESPN are programmed in a way to form a pocket, and engage defensive players in a complicated way. Not trying to bring up Madden too much, but in that game the OL seems programmed differently; to engage a specific person. That's why I assume it's so easy to set up nano-blitzes in Madden, because certain movements will always make the OL react in a certain way.

The IGN guys constantly tried to get away from the pocket - they'd start moving around before the pocket even formed. Madden players use that movement to manipulate defenders into blockers. In ESPN, you're more effective on offense if you call a play, KNOW what patterns your receivers are running, and make your reads accordingly. In Madden, most players simply try to buy enough time for someone to get open. Madden is the easier system to grasp. What's funny is people try to make that simplicity to mean more realistic, when it only means that it's easier to do what they want. I love that in ESPN, when I call a play I'll be more successful if I know the pattern every receiver is running, I assume like a real QB would. And like in a real game, I have to sit in the pocket and trust that my OL will give me time to hit [whatever] receiver.

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OK so your saying you should not take over the QB and just press the controller in a certain direction and make a pass? I do not agree with that I think you should be able to take control of the player.

You are right on the QB jukes movie http://www.espnvideogames.com/news/m...p?id=580&gid=7

the guy controlling the Thumbstick does not move the left thumbstick at all.

Your breakdown of the madden system is awesome In madden the o-line covers the corners better, knows where the QB is at in the pocket better, and will make better reads on defenders trying to make a move to the outside. THey also pancake defenders that try to just run around them or run over them.

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don't take this the wrong way but you don't get it b/c at least a little bit you're one of these guys. you probably drop back too far by nature and since it's shorter than you would be able to in madden you think it's right. like lbz said, if it's a fan and you go back farther than the intended drop the pursuit angles of the DEs will beyond the reach of the Ts to block them. a one hand shove or whiff would "look" more realistic but the effect shouldn't change one bit.

you point out how many yards dropped back but not how many STEPS were dropped and how many the play called for. if you'd like i'll make a similar breakdown to yours using this information and you can see the difference. if you call a play for a 3 step drop the O line blocks a different way so if you take more than 3 steps chances are you won't have time. same with 5. with that said, a 7 step drop and 7 yard drop are drastically different. 20 yards is an exaggeration in complaints.

that's enough right there but notice that the defenders are blitz happy too. if you've got everyone running a pattern and blitzers coming from all over the place every down then you've got to hit the open guy right away rather than try to wait for someone to get open. chances are someone will get in clean every play. the suction blocking of madden that also can allow you to close an lb or db pursuit route without them adjusting which allows you to by time pales in comparison in terms of realism. you're looking at an effect that helps you and considering it realistic b/c it helps your comfort level.