This game feels so scripted at times

[spitoon]

Re: This game feels so scripted at times

I'm not a conspiracy theory type of guy, so I don't think it exists at all.

Last night I struggled all game long and scored 3 in the bottom of the 9th for a walk off win that I had no right getting. If the CPU could talk, I'm sure it would be complaining about a comeback code...

Look at box scores from a week of real MLB games. There are comebacks, close games, blowouts. Cleveland (a sub .500 team) scored 11 runs in the final 3 innings to blow out the Blue Jays 15-4 last night.

It happens.

[Heroesandvillains]

Re: This game feels so scripted at times

P.A.D, here's some light reading for you from the lead AI programmer:

The CPU's hitting has no relation to your hitting. It does have relation to your pitching, which if anything is what could be changing. Isn't it a more likely explanation that that the better you hit, the better you are allowing the CPU to hit? Some people don't play as hard when they're winning. In fact, that's more true in a video game than real MLB baseball, not less. An experiment needs to eliminate this bias.

I'm only clarifying the fact that there is no hidden comeback code in the game. It's an objective question, and there isn't any. I don't have any problem with anything you've said, I just wanted to clear that myth up!

If you're not pitching well with Mariano Rivera, it's because you're not pitching well with Mariano Rivera. If you pitched better with Rivera in previous games, it means you pitched better with Rivera in previous games. We could start a new discussion about that instead. There's probably an explanation and it might be hard to figure out, but I can easily say it is not comeback code.

If comeback code was why you kept losing games with Rivera, nobody else would be able to close with Rivera or any other closer. Blown saves is like RBIs in that your teammates have a lot of say in what you get, it's a record of achievement and but a weak statistical measure. This is the same reason why a 2.50 ERA legendary starter can have a 11-10 record more than halfway into the season. This kind of real life inconsistency isn't because of a jinx. For Rivera being on the Yankees also helps his blown saves stat in real life, but not if in the game you're not getting real life Yankee offense.

On this board there are threads of people talking about how close they got to a no hitter. Compared to that, the three blown leads you described are a much more common streak and should actually happen several times a season for many teams. The game would be broken if this didn't come up.

If we're talking long streaks, if it's not one team in real life it's going to be another. Periodically, you can easily have multiple teams with losing streaks even with no teams having a winning streak. And vice versa. I wouldn't put too much into what happens in one week.

By definition, another person may see the very opposite steak in a few games, and even more people will repeatedly see both. I've played thousands of games and have seen a simple streak like this repeatedly, as well as the exact opposite. In a twist of irony, preventing these natural streaks from happening would be the very nature of comeback code!

Based on these 3 games and your experience, do you feel that if you played 3 or even 6 more games the same blown leads would continue happening repeatedly? Do you feel you can't get blowouts because of a flaw in the game, and that blowout streaks aren't possible? How about for other people? I don't get a sense that you think there's necessarily comeback code, and these examples are easy to test.

Real life teams have lost a dozen games more under less likely and far more ironic circumstances. What matters is all the thousands of other games we'd have to ignore to see this. No newspaper is going to print the thousands of non-streaks that happened, and no one's going to discuss it.

Regarding streaks, several great teams have even failed to win championships for decades, and in real life they will even blame ghosts. Assuming ghosts and their red shirt cousins aren't really responsible, people would still invent them anyways! This answers your question on imagination and why so many people have these theories. If they didn't, this wouldn't be baseball. It wouldn't be fun.

Millions of people have referenced specific curses and ghosts in books, articles, and tv for decades. That's more than the number of posts ever made to this board. So is this because of the strong influence ghosts have on baseball, or rather the importance of imagination and color in baseball?

For anyone reading this, if you're convinced there is definitely hidden comeback code or don't want to hear about whether or not it literally exists, please stop reading right here. Baseball is about statistical mysteries, and there's no need to spoil that.

For those of you still reading, the answer is there is no such hidden comeback code. This is a simple matter of fact, because it either exists or it doesn't. It's one thing to run scientific tests on a chest to determine what's inside, it's another to open it up and look. Both methods when done correctly yield the same result - there is no hidden comeback code.

Some people want to know this, and those are the only people I'm writing this for so please don't take offense at having an answer. I don't want to spoil the mystery for anyone else, but on the other hand there's been some confusion for those want to know. I apologize if you read this by skipping the warning two paragraphs ago, I'm only trying to give an answer for a few people asking.

We all know there's always going to be threads on streaks in baseball. After all, the most unlikely thing in baseball is for nothing unlikely to happen!

The short answer is no, so something else is happening. It's worth noting this actually happens in real life - it's called relievers. :wink:

Fatigue affects pitcher control and movement very gradually, but it adds up if you keep a pitcher in too long. But even near the end of a pitcher's start he can make up for this by pitching more carefully around batters (on average, increasing walks instead of extra base hits). This is a general trend you'll only see over many games, in individual games anything can happen at any time.

That said, a tired Ace is on average much better than a fresh reliever. But at some point that starter is going to lose effectiveness (or complete the game), and a reliever is going to be better. Ideally, you replace the starter before he proves this point.

Excluding closers, collectively starters pitch much better over 6 innings than relievers do over 1. That's how much better they are overall.

The game has no comeback code - that would just be obvious after X games played. It would also prevent proper longterm results (ex. score variety). Longterm results are already hard enough to do well with every user being of different skills/style of play, so we're not about to add another layer of issues on top of that.

Comeback code can only give you artificial short-term excitement until you realize what's happening. Put another way, out of 100 real games it's trying to force you to play only the 50 most "exciting" ones - with the assumpiton that you're not interested in the other 50 or even the potential of branching into them. You'd never know this difference if you only played a few games, but we focus on longterm replayability.

Streaks are primarily statistical, but some natural ones are unavoidable. For example, I simply hit better on some days than others - sleep and vision are the biggest determination of that. I also tend to get better as I practice, and worse as I take long breaks. In-game players have performance streaks but the key ones are visible to the user and are minor compared to fundamentals.

You can say the game is too easy, or too hard, too little offense, or too much offense - but it has no comeback code.

Brian

[extremeskins04]

Re: This game feels so scripted at times

Do you throw the same sequence of pitches to batters?

Of course not. I always mix it up. Locations, speeds, play mind games with hitters, etc. I do very good pitching in the first 7 innings...but in late innings I get smoked probably 1 out of 3 games.

[allstardad]

Re: This game feels so scripted at times

Of course not. I always mix it up. Locations, speeds, play mind games with hitters, etc. I do very good pitching in the first 7 innings...but in late innings I get smoked probably 1 out of 3 games.

Ok, what about using the same pattern of pitches to the same hitter? Example, you struck out David Wright in the 6th with a fastball on the inner part of plate. In the 9th, you have two strikes, would you again throw a fastball on the inner part of the plate since it worked before?

[extremeskins04]

Re: This game feels so scripted at times

Ok, what about using the same pattern of pitches to the same hitter? Example, you struck out David Wright in the 6th with a fastball on the inner part of plate. In the 9th, you have two strikes, would you again throw a fastball on the inner part of the plate since it worked before?

That's actually a fair point. I don't remember. I most likely would throw something different.

[underdog13]

Re: This game feels so scripted at times

Why does every game have to turn into a nail biter at the end? There's been so many occasions where I dominate the CPU (pitching-wise) only to have them pull some miraculous feat at the end to tie it up.

It's baseball... it's going to happen every once in a while. But it's gotten to the point where it's at least every other game in my franchise.

How many games have you played?

[birthday_massacre]

Re: This game feels so scripted at times

I only started playing NBA2k14 a little while ago soon after buying my new PS4 console and I will admit for the first few days playing the game I suspected that NBA2k14 was scripted. But after playing more games, I don't think NBA2k14 is scripted. Sometimes it may appear that the games are the same, but Basketball is a repetitive sport so naturally the same thing might appear to be happening more than it should. But I have played enough games now in NBA2k14 to see that the games are different. Sometimes the results may appear to be the same, but that is just a coincidence.

Plus as I have said earlier in this thread. MLB 14 The Show is not scripted. Two nights ago I lost to the Kansas City Royals 3-0 mustering only 2 hits against their starter who went 9 dominant innings where my hitters could no little if anything. Then last night I lost again to the Royals, this time losing 6-5 in a 10 inning game where hitting was not my problem on this night. No I lost the game last night because in the bottom of the 10th my Right Fielder Michael Cuddyer tried to make a diving catch on a fly ball, but missed the ball and what should have been a single resulting in base runners on 1st and 2nd with two outs was instead an RBI triple ... game over. Definitely not scripted.

NBA2k14 has had tons of videos to prove its scripted. From players who are rated in the 90s missing two free throws at the end of the game (when they were perfect before that) even though the rating was perfectly timed to videos of players clearly blocking the ball yet the ball goes right through the defenders hands letting the CPU score to go ahead in the game.

I had a game and had pics to show it where I was winning going into the 4th quarter, then the CPU shot something like 80% and the CPU made me miss everything and I shot just like 25% and the CPU ended up winning the game.

If that isn't AI comeback code, then I don't know what is.

Personally, I've always been a firm believer that there is some type of logic built into this game to make games closer, but because the developers stated there wasn't, the masses would have you believe that what they say is law. My questions are this:

- If the masses have stated many times that they DO NOT want rubber banding built in and it was, would ANY dev in their right mind admit to it, knowing this could cost them sales?

- If the masses have repeatedly stated they want a competitive and realistic game and the only way to accomplish this would be to build in rubber banding logic, then why wouldn't they?

Now with these points made, do I think there is actual rubber banding maliciously built into the code? No. What I do think is that the developers coded it in such a way that the CPU "buckles down" in the late innings in order to get back in the game so that if you make ANY mistake, they will burn you for it. And I think in order for the CPU to actually "buckle down," certain things have to happen (squeezed and inconsistent strike zones, seeing-eye singles, fighting off tough pitches, etc.) to replicate that action. So do I think it's rubber banding? No. Do I think it's "tougher" AI in later innings? Yes. That's why the devs say there is no rubber banding. It's not rubber banding per se, it's just a livened up AI coupled with inconsistent strike zones, relievers being worse than starters, confidence being poorly coded, and user error.

EDIT: It should be noted that I ONLY believe this type of logic is built in on the higher levels. I played AllStar level and it's a cake walk. I've never seen a HINT of it on AllStar or lower, but on HoF and higher, it manifests itself clearly in my opinion.

Exactly, the CPU gets some kind of boost under the hood to let them buckle down or focus more and that is what the come back code is all about since its not a human player its impossible to reproduce, so the Devs give the computer a boost to help recreate this.

Its just cheap when the game makes the user controller players botch 2 plays in a row just to let keep it close.

All modes have it, I just think its way more obvious in the higher levels because the CPU has to do more to win.

If most people play on VET or Allstar that is probably why they don't notice is.

[allstardad]

Re: This game feels so scripted at times

That's actually a fair point. I don't remember. I most likely would throw something different.

I live on the pitcher/batter analysis screen, especially late in games or in key situations.

[JoshC1977]

Re: This game feels so scripted at times

Many relievers are impressive only in one or two categories (like mid- or high-90s fastball),

I think this is the biggest key. If you are using a reliever in The Show that only has one or two high quality pitches, you have to stick with them. Sure, that reliever may have a change-up, but if it is a 40-grade pitch (20-80 scouting scale), then DON'T USE IT!! You might be tempted to do so after pitching with a starter most of the game, but these are the pitches that can get relievers into trouble. It can snowball quickly, and voila, you have your "scripted" comeback.

[Padgoi]

Re: This game feels so scripted at times

Exactly, the CPU gets some kind of boost under the hood to let them buckle down or focus more and that is what the come back code is all about since its not a human player its impossible to reproduce, so the Devs give the computer a boost to help recreate this.

Its just cheap when the game makes the user controller players botch 2 plays in a row just to let keep it close.

All modes have it, I just think its way more obvious in the higher levels because the CPU has to do more to win.

If most people play on VET or Allstar that is probably why they don't notice is.

See this I don't agree with at all. The developers stated last season I believe that the game itself cannot distinguish between the CPU team and the human team, so any "comebacks" aren't strictly isolated to just the CPU. And I can attest to this as I've had many a late inning comeback against the CPU that also seemed "interesting." This theory isn't relative to just the CPU making comebacks, it's the human too.

And heroes, I appreciate you regurgitating exactly what the developer said and proving my point that when a developer says something, some people here take it as law. Once again, would a developer admit it if it did exist?

I was quite transparent that I do not believe any rubber band logic exists. What I do believe is that the game sees a team down by a lot and assumes that that team is going to take it easy based on exactly what the developer said - that teams tend to take it easy when they get up by a lot. This manifests itself in the CPU literally throwing meatballs down the middle of the plate AS WELL AS the user aiming for corners and missing for whatever reason. I think it's a coding element as well as a human element that causes this.

Oh, and I think confidence is way too strong a factor in this game. And I think relievers are given a raw deal in that many of them are just as good as middle of the rotation starters, they're just good at what they do. The game needs to account for that better.

[Will I Am]

Re: This game feels so scripted at times

No, the things is, if the reliever is a better pitcher, then he should really be starting. You want your better pitchers to pitch more innings than worse pitchers just to increase the chance of winning. Many relievers are impressive only in one or two categories (like mid- or high-90s fastball), and their limited arsenal prevents from sustaining their success over a longer term, when they have to face the same batters three times each game repeatedly, as starters have to do.

There is also some pitcher confidence/command effect in The Show. Pitchers are most effective after they establish the command of at least one or two pitches and also the overall confidence, but with relievers you don't really have time to "warm up" sufficiently during the game. So things can really get ugly when you leave a reliever in for too long (even a couple ABs) when he clearly has trouble establishing the confidence/command.

I think there is a room for discussion as to how how "worse" relievers should be in the game in general, how should confidence/command factor into the game, etc., but that needs to be separated from comeback/scripted-feel discussions which always get ruined by flat-Earth theorists.

Well I pretty much agree with what your saying I guess the point I was making is that people are saying that relievers are basically treated like scrubs in the game, worse than #5 starters and that shouldn't be the case.

If you have 5 starters and 7 relievers the 7 8 9 inning guys (in most cases) should in my mind be right up there with the #1 and 2 starters in terms of effectiveness for the inning you bring them in. Now if players choose to leave them in for an extra inning then yeah your asking for trouble.

[Heroesandvillains]

Re: This game feels so scripted at times

See this I don't agree with at all. The developers stated last season I believe that the game itself cannot distinguish between the CPU team and the human team, so any "comebacks" aren't strictly isolated to just the CPU. And I can attest to this as I've had many a late inning comeback against the CPU that also seemed "interesting." This theory isn't relative to just the CPU making comebacks, it's the human too.

And heroes, I appreciate you regurgitating exactly what the developer said and proving my point that when a developer says something, some people here take it as law. Once again, would a developer admit it if it did exist?

I was quite transparent that I do not believe any rubber band logic exists. What I do believe is that the game sees a team down by a lot and assumes that that team is going to take it easy based on exactly what the developer said - that teams tend to take it easy when they get up by a lot. This manifests itself in the CPU literally throwing meatballs down the middle of the plate AS WELL AS the user aiming for corners and missing for whatever reason. I think it's a coding element as well as a human element that causes this.

Oh, and I think confidence is way too strong a factor in this game. And I think relievers are given a raw deal in that many of them are just as good as middle of the rotation starters, they're just good at what they do. The game needs to account for that better.

LOL!

The lead programmer talks programming, explains how comeback code would be counterintuitive and undercut his goal with the program...

Ties it up neatly in baseball knowledge. BAM. He must be...lying???

Brian is NOT a PR person. He has no incentive or obligation to post here. His only gain is to clarify how the game works and how he can better...

Improve his program (aka The CODE).

Everything you need to know is in the posts I quoted. It's there if you choose to actually read it.

[mr9inchesbpel]

Re: This game feels so scripted at times

Played a game in The Show Live using player lock.

It was the Indians in Toronto against the Blue Jays.

Was player locked on the designated hitter.

Watched most of the game saw my pitcher keep getting out jams like crazy early in the game. Saw my team hit for a rally and get a run.

They were winning 2-0 in the top of the 9th. The Indians weren't hitting at all late in the game.


Brought in Brett Cecil to pitch to Lonnie Chisenhall bases were loaded think two guys were out.


Out of nowhere Chisenhall pulls to right field and it's a grand slam, the Indians go ahead 4-2 and wind up winning the game.



Watched the replay of the homerun and the bat was pretty much level with the plate and the ball ( ball looked like it should have flew up the middle towards center field ) and the ball hit more towards the handle and not the barrel of the bat, also it was a lefty lefty situation and Chisenhall is not a power hitter and Cecil had just came into the game and is a decent pitcher. That one seemed like it should have not been a grand slam and seemed scripted.

[ggsimmonds]

Re: This game feels so scripted at times

If the user completes a late inning comeback it is
"oh my god I just played an epic game, it was so intense"

If the AI completes a late inning comeback it is
"omg this game is scripted!!"

[Russell_SCEA]

Re: This game feels so scripted at times

If the user completes a late inning comeback it is
"oh my god I just played an epic game, it was so intense"

If the AI completes a late inning comeback it is
"omg this game is scripted!!"

Pretty much