Throw Urgency

[Spokker]

Re: Throw Urgency

Is that what you mean?

At it's core, my question is about the age-old debate between arcade vs. sim. For example, no matter how accurate you are with your placement and timing while batting, the game will not let you bat over .500 for a full season.

The Show seems like a balance between simulation and interactivity, and that's the way I like it. The opposite of The Show would be a game in which the physics are all calculated as the ball hits the bat, and whatever happens happens. If the player bats .800, so be it.

I prefer The Show, but a purely physics-based baseball would be neat to see.

Bottom line, The Show is such a work of art in representing such a complex game that it's no wonder people have so many questions about what goes on under the hood.

[Woodweaver]

Re: Throw Urgency

I just erased everything I wrote and I have one question (it's never just one question) that will answer everything for me.

Is it right to characterize the game this way. "MLB The Show is a simulation with a graphical representation of that simulation on top."

In other words, when you throw to first, is the outcome of the play determined the moment the player throws the ball, or the moment the ball reaches the first baseman's glove? I think the former because no matter how hard you throw the ball to first, if David Ortiz is lumbering down the line, it will be a casual throw. It appears (I know nothing and this is just perception) that the game is not going to let me throw hard to first in that situation and let me look silly.

Bonus question: When bugs occur, is that the simulation and the graphical representation of that simulation going out of sync? Meaning, in that video where the catcher refuses to make the tag, in the absence of that bug, the runner would be out anyway? The game already calculated what should happen, but the graphics failed to represent it correctly?

I don't want to get too far off topic here. But to answer you question quickly, yes and no. There are a finite number of animations we have to represent a game of infinite possibilities, and we are trying to make it appear like you are watching a MLB caliber game. So, often times the players input is scaled within specific parameters to make sure nothing ridiculous is going to happen, but nothing is predetermined until the player gives his/her input.


Using your specific example: Depending on how your fielder makes the play on Ortiz's hit (based on your input), the catch used, the time delta between your throw and Ortiz's time to 1B, and the situation on the field (i.e. other runners on base), the types of throw animations will be limited to provide an accurate MLB simulation. But, whether you miss your branch point while entering your throw input, commit an error, or throw the ball 50mph or 70mph (this range depends on your fielder's attributes among many other factors) to 1B is all based on your input in the moment. Not to mention the additional calculations that go on at the other end to see if the 1Bman actually makes the catch.


This is a simplification, and you can already see how complicated representing something as ostensibly simple as throwing a ball to 1B can be when trying to encode it. And, all of these points only encompass your one specific case!


And since we are already way off topic, I'll have to be even more brief answering your bonus question...no, that is not what caused that bug.

[rottenchops]

Re: Throw Urgency

There have been multiple tutorials over the years. One of the past video tutorials was referenced earlier in this very thread. I myself have posted explanations multiple times on OS concerning the branching animation system. I believe this feature was "on the back of the box" for a couple of iterations too. Maybe we need to do a better/different job of emphasizing the mechanic if it is still a mystery...? .

Well I've watched the so-called tutorial earlier in this thread and I spent about 10 minutes googling and I still have no idea what branching even means and I still don't know how to do a quick throw reliably.

[Spokker]

Re: Throw Urgency

And since we are already way off topic, I'll have to be even more brief answering your bonus question...no, that is not what caused that bug.

Thanks for this. I appreciate your time.

[iLLWiLL]

Re: Throw Urgency

As I said earlier, anecdotal experiences are not that helpful when trying to diagnose these problems. Please try to capture a video. In the meantime, Ramone posted a great tutorial video earlier in the thread. Check it out. I think there may be a couple of more out there too. Track those down.

No offense man. But just because videos aren't [available] for when this kind of stuff happens doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. I had complained of this myself last year (and it obviously still exists in this year's game), but some people (not saying you, Woodweaver) react as though we are making things up or exaggerating. Makes me wonder if we all have the same game, lol.

I know Russell had posted a YouTube video on the throwing mechanic, but honestly that video didn't teach me anything about how the throwing mechanic works. (Plus, that was MLB 10, the meters aren't even the same anymore, if I'm not mistaken.)


That leads to a bigger problem I have, being that MLB15 is really like my "sophomore year" -- and that's documentation. I know game companies are cutting costs by no longer printing manuals, and that's fine. But it would be extremely valuable to me if there was a write-up or video tutorial on topics like: how the zone hitting/PCI mechanic works, how the pitching mechanics works (e.g., using the pitching meter), how to use classic & default baserunning, how to use manual fielding (& throwing), etc. To add to that, I think it would be GREAT if a 'Practice Mode' was available for fielding, throwing, and pitching!!! I'd rather learn in practice than "on the job" during games, making errors, losing, and killing my Dynamic-difficulty rating, lol


Anyways, hope this didn't come across the wrong way, or as "destructive criticism". I love the game, it's my favorite sports game. I think all of our feedback is important in improving in the future

[Woodweaver]

Re: Throw Urgency

No offense man. But just because videos aren't [available] for when this kind of stuff happens doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. I had complained of this myself last year (and it obviously still exists in this year's game), but some people (not saying you, Woodweaver) react as though we are making things up or exaggerating. Makes me wonder if we all have the same game, lol.

I know Russell had posted a YouTube video on the throwing mechanic, but honestly that video didn't teach me anything about how the throwing mechanic works. (Plus, that was MLB 10, the meters aren't even the same anymore, if I'm not mistaken.)


That leads to a bigger problem I have, being that MLB15 is really like my "sophomore year" -- and that's documentation. I know game companies are cutting costs by no longer printing manuals, and that's fine. But it would be extremely valuable to me if there was a write-up or video tutorial on topics like: how the zone hitting/PCI mechanic works, how the pitching mechanics works (e.g., using the pitching meter), how to use classic & default baserunning, how to use manual fielding (& throwing), etc. To add to that, I think it would be GREAT if a 'Practice Mode' was available for fielding, throwing, and pitching!!! I'd rather learn in practice than "on the job" during games, making errors, losing, and killing my Dynamic-difficulty rating, lol


Anyways, hope this didn't come across the wrong way, or as "destructive criticism". I love the game, it's my favorite sports game. I think all of our feedback is important in improving in the future

You are missing the point.


If you want these issues fixed, supplying a video is key to making that happen. I need to see what someone is talking about. Oftentimes there is not a bug, it is simply a misunderstanding of the system or interface. If it is a real bug, then a video helps to narrow down the possible cause(s). Many claim that this issue presents itself "A LOT". This claim, along with the ease of capturing in-game video, would lead me to believe that there should be an abundance of video examples available.

I'll leave it to you to draw your own conclusions as to why this does not seem to be the case.

[bcruise]

Re: Throw Urgency

To add to that, I think it would be GREAT if a 'Practice Mode' was available for fielding, throwing, and pitching!!! I'd rather learn in practice than "on the job" during games, making errors, losing, and killing my Dynamic-difficulty rating, lol

There is something like this, of sorts. Going into the community challenges section you can set up a repeatable fielding situation with the autohit option and just practice it, with whatever options and sliders you want. There's no need to publish what you create in there if you don't want to, either.

[Woodweaver]

Re: Throw Urgency

There is something like this, of sorts. Going into the community challenges section you can set up a repeatable fielding situation with the autohit option and just practice it, with whatever options and sliders you want. There's no need to publish what you create in there if you don't want to, either.

Excellent point. That being said, a more formalized practice mode might be the next logical step...

[HozAndMoose]

Re: Throw Urgency

No offense man. But just because videos aren't [available] for when this kind of stuff happens doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. I had complained of this myself last year (and it obviously still exists in this year's game), but some people (not saying you, Woodweaver) react as though we are making things up or exaggerating. Makes me wonder if we all have the same game, lol.

I know Russell had posted a YouTube video on the throwing mechanic, but honestly that video didn't teach me anything about how the throwing mechanic works. (Plus, that was MLB 10, the meters aren't even the same anymore, if I'm not mistaken.)


That leads to a bigger problem I have, being that MLB15 is really like my "sophomore year" -- and that's documentation. I know game companies are cutting costs by no longer printing manuals, and that's fine. But it would be extremely valuable to me if there was a write-up or video tutorial on topics like: how the zone hitting/PCI mechanic works, how the pitching mechanics works (e.g., using the pitching meter), how to use classic & default baserunning, how to use manual fielding (& throwing), etc. To add to that, I think it would be GREAT if a 'Practice Mode' was available for fielding, throwing, and pitching!!! I'd rather learn in practice than "on the job" during games, making errors, losing, and killing my Dynamic-difficulty rating, lol


Anyways, hope this didn't come across the wrong way, or as "destructive criticism". I love the game, it's my favorite sports game. I think all of our feedback is important in improving in the future

You are playing the game on a PS4. If you have an issue there should never be a reason to not have video. The game has replay where you can record any play after it happens. The PS4 has built in ways to record that play. Hell you can even press the share button and automatically save the last 15 minutes so you don't even have to go to replay.

[Russell_SCEA]

Re: Throw Urgency

No offense man. But just because videos aren't [available] for when this kind of stuff happens doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. I had complained of this myself last year (and it obviously still exists in this year's game), but some people (not saying you, Woodweaver) react as though we are making things up or exaggerating. Makes me wonder if we all have the same game, lol.

I know Russell had posted a YouTube video on the throwing mechanic, but honestly that video didn't teach me anything about how the throwing mechanic works. (Plus, that was MLB 10, the meters aren't even the same anymore, if I'm not mistaken.)


That leads to a bigger problem I have, being that MLB15 is really like my "sophomore year" -- and that's documentation. I know game companies are cutting costs by no longer printing manuals, and that's fine. But it would be extremely valuable to me if there was a write-up or video tutorial on topics like: how the zone hitting/PCI mechanic works, how the pitching mechanics works (e.g., using the pitching meter), how to use classic & default baserunning, how to use manual fielding (& throwing), etc. To add to that, I think it would be GREAT if a 'Practice Mode' was available for fielding, throwing, and pitching!!! I'd rather learn in practice than "on the job" during games, making errors, losing, and killing my Dynamic-difficulty rating, lol


Anyways, hope this didn't come across the wrong way, or as "destructive criticism". I love the game, it's my favorite sports game. I think all of our feedback is important in improving in the future

The game manual is located in the XMB menu and there is a very detailed strategy guide in the pause menu as well. The strategy guide details how all the hitting and pitching mechanics work.

On the subject of fielding the underlying mechanics did not change the game still and will always use "throw ready" animations if you miss your branch point. In MLB The Show you should pre-load your throw the moment you know where you want to go with the ball. The longer you wait the worsen animation sets you will have access to and if you wait to long you'll miss those animations altogether and use a throw ready animation.

You can always go to youtube, google, theshownation, and OS and just do a search for the areas of the game your unfamiliar with and see what pops up in the search.

[iLLWiLL]

Re: Throw Urgency

The game manual is located in the XMB menu and there is a very detailed strategy guide in the pause menu as well. The strategy guide details how all the hitting and pitching mechanics work.

On the subject of fielding the underlying mechanics did not change the game still and will always use "throw ready" animations if you miss your branch point. In MLB The Show you should pre-load your throw the moment you know where you want to go with the ball. The longer you wait the worsen animation sets you will have access to and if you wait to long you'll miss those animations altogether and use a throw ready animation.

You can always go to youtube, google, theshownation, and OS and just do a search for the areas of the game your unfamiliar with and see what pops up in the search.

I am going to check out the strategy guide in the pause menu, as well as sign up for theshownation. Thanks Russell


EDIT:

http://forums.theshownation.com/forum/mlb-the-show/news-developer-journals/31287-news-mlb-the-show-strategy-guide

[bcruise]

Re: Throw Urgency

Alright, here's one I'd love to hear WW's thoughts on. For me, this is very rare - but I've read that it's happened to other people as well, and given that this happens maybe once or twice out of an entire season that's probably too often IMO.

Situation is runner Emilio Bonifacio at 2nd, 1 out. BTW, the game is at a neutral park because I was trying to avoid the Wrigley Field boundary bugs.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/LcFUR5_8dRc?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Is it Soler's fielding ratings that cause him to take such a long time to run into the wall + throw to cutoff, so as to allow Bonifacio to score from 2nd on a sac fly? Or is it something else?

Bonifacio is fast, and he's probably one of a handful of guys who can do this. But it seems like this kind of thing should only happen on deep fly balls into the alleys or center field, and probably only in a few parks at that.

Here's an example of one of these that happened in the real MLB, and just how wild of a play it takes for this to actually happen:

<iframe src='http://mlb.mlb.com/shared/video/embed/embed.html?content_id=32451141&width=400&height=22 4&property=mlb' width='400' height='224' frameborder='0'>Your browser does not support iframes.</iframe>

[Woodweaver]

Re: Throw Urgency

Alright, here's one I'd love to hear WW's thoughts on. For me, this is very rare - but I've read that it's happened to other people as well, and given that this happens maybe once or twice out of an entire season that's probably too often IMO.

Situation is runner Emilio Bonifacio at 2nd, 1 out. BTW, the game is at a neutral park because I was trying to avoid the Wrigley Field boundary bugs.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/LcFUR5_8dRc?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen=""></iframe>

Is it Soler's fielding ratings that cause him to take such a long time to run into the wall + throw to cutoff, so as to allow Bonifacio to score from 2nd on a sac fly? Or is it something else?

Bonifacio is fast, and he's probably one of a handful of guys who can do this. But it seems like this kind of thing should only happen on deep fly balls into the alleys or center field, and probably only in a few parks at that.

Here's an example of one of these that happened in the real MLB, and just how wild of a play it takes for this to actually happen:

<iframe width="400" height="224" src="http://mlb.mlb.com/shared/video/embed/embed.html?content_id=32451141&width=400&height=22 4&property=mlb" frameborder="0">Your browser does not support iframes.</iframe>

This should be a very rare situation of course. If you are seeing it often, then it is something we'll definitely have to take a look. However, this is the first example I have seen without something "wacky" happening on the field.

There are a few factors that go into determining whether or not the OFer will carom off the wall. The obvious ones are the speed and angle to the wall he is traveling when making a catch. The other is the throw animations available from that catch. Depending on the catch animation, there are a limited number of throw animations to which they can branch. The fielders attributes will affect the sets of animations that a fielder can use in any given situation.


This second factor is especially important because we made the aesthetic decision to have the fielder carom if the only available throw animation(s) will take the fielder into the wall (which would cause him to "bounce" against the wall). Obviously, this is not always ideal, but given the limitations of our animation set and the infinite number of ways these situations could play out, there will inevitably be cases in which subjective views of what is "correct" will differ.


We are constantly striving to improve this area by iterating on the metrics and logic we use to make this decision and adding throw animations to better fit certain situations. But it is a moving target, we are adding new catches all the time as well that can be used under new conditions which can lead to new situations that will cause the current throw animation set to result in a carom. Sometimes that looks good and makes sense...sometimes, arguably, it does not.


I know at times, when I am playing, I have to make the strategic decision to try to make the sure out with the catch on the fly or instead play the ball of the wall in order to get a better chance of throwing out a runner that may score a deciding run. Depending on the fielder and the angles, it can be challenging and thus frustrating when it does not pan out (especially when you feel like that fielder should have been able to make a play). We are trying to remove those instances of frustration, but it can be subjective at times. One man's "how did he not make that play" can be another man's "there's now way he would have made that play". How may times, IRL, do we say these very things to ourselves?


BTW, here's another example...man that guy is fast!

https://youtu.be/HpJdTmuXnZw

[bcruise]

Re: Throw Urgency

Thanks for the reply WW. I agree it's always a balancing act on plays like this, and by and large I think you guys do a great job of it. The frequency of plays like this has gone way down in the last few years.

And yeah, I ran across that Rockhounds clip while I was looking for examples too. That guy can fly.

[p00p1]

Re: Throw Urgency

If the manual was good then this forum would be a lot less active...