Another Year of the Show Completely Wasted

[Armor and Sword]

Re: Another Year of the Show Completely Wasted

Thank you.



That's not clutch, it's exactly what you said.



Talent and preparation.

So there is no such thing as clutch.

In any sport.

Ok.


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[Armor and Sword]

Re: Another Year of the Show Completely Wasted

Umm guys, I only brought up the comeback code thing to prove a point, not to re-spark the debate.

If my memory serves me right, the devs have said in the past that clutch only had a very minor impact in select situations.

Personally, as far as real life is concerned, I believe in clutch. I know I for one perform better under pressure.

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Exactly.

Clutch is number of factors. But it exists. And when you have played team sports at a high level you are around your teammates and you get to know who you can count on in pressure situations and who you can’t count on.




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[Armor and Sword]

Another Year of the Show Completely Wasted

Exactly. People said Arod wasn't clutch... Until 2009.
We can't even tell if trout is clutch because he's never been deep into the postseason.
Clutch is nonsense in baseball. It seems like just that... a way to keep things interesting.


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Nonsense in baseball.

Lmao

Ok man.

Most people in baseball (especially at the college and pro level) will laugh at that statement.

Let’s simply agree to disagree.

I don’t care to argue with saber-metric nuts. Not saying saber metrics have no place. Because they do.

But too many are now relying on it too much to their fault. And it will cost them titles as time goes on. Give me a manager who has a pulse on his roster and a great feel and eye for the game and couple that with a front office who can scout talent with saber metrics.

But don’t let saber metrics take over managing a game too much. Thats when things start getting stupid.

This is a whole other conversation.

But you go tell Howie Kendrick he was not clutch in the post season and it was nonsense he had one of the more clutch post seasons in recent memory.



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[kehlis]

Re: Another Year of the Show Completely Wasted

I don’t care to argue with saber-metric nuts.

I know next to nothing about the saber metrics side of baseball.

I played baseball through college and was a pitching coach on a team in the D3 College World Series.

In all my time, I've never seen any evidence of anything that shows "clutch" exists.

Good players (like Jeter) perform in pressure situations according to his normal mean.

Very similar to how he performs in non pressure situations but no one likes to point that out.

[Caulfield]

Re: Another Year of the Show Completely Wasted

Exactly.

Clutch is number of factors. But it exists. And when you have played team sports at a high level you are around your teammates and you get to know who you can count on in pressure situations and who you can’t count on.








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just gonna play some devil advocate here.


and herein lies the problem. as a terrible procrastinator as I am, I know a little of what I speak. When a guy waits so late in a game to ''turn it on'', you have to wonder why didn't he put in the effort earlier? Is he sandbagging? Saving his energy until a time he can look the hero? In a way, he helped to put his teammates at risk, IF he could have played better earlier, that's just a good a time to rely on someone instead of turning everyone prematurely grey, on the verge of losing. Like I say, I could try harder earlier in my work day/week, but, to quote Office Space, ''its not that I'm lazy, its that I dont care''.

[Padgoi]

Re: Another Year of the Show Completely Wasted

Howie Kendrick was clutch.
This past postseason.
What did he do differently than any other game that was considered clutch? Did he just become clutch? Or was it just perhaps that he just happen to hit those particular pitches better this year?

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[kehlis]

Re: Another Year of the Show Completely Wasted

Clutch is number of factors. But it exists. And when you have played team sports at a high level you are around your teammates and you get to know who you can count on in pressure situations and who you can’t count on.]

I missed this.

I've played at what I would consider to be a decently high level.

You're not wrong. There ARE always players you can count on to come through in a clutch situation. The reality though, is that they don't always come through (people forget those moments for good players).

This happens in the MLB as well.


In the same vein, I've seen many players who no one was counting on in a clutch situation to come through, but they did.

This always happens in the MLB but no one remembers those moments either.

[Armor and Sword]

Re: Another Year of the Show Completely Wasted

Howie Kendrick was clutch.
This past postseason.
What did he do differently than any other game that was considered clutch? Did he just become clutch? Or was it just perhaps that he just happen to hit those particular pitches better this year?

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That is my point I guess. There was a clutch factor. He had it this post season.

It’s tough.....especially in baseball. Such a brutal game and unforgiving. Alex Rodriguez. Never was able to perform in the post season except one year 2009.

A number of other guys......Barry Bonds. Was awful in the post season.

Just bad timing? Cold snap at the wrong time? Or unable to perform under the higher pressure of the post season.

I think we are all mostly on the same page.

Clutch factor though does exist in “moments”. Some guys hit better with RISP than others. So they are deemed....more “clutch”.

[Armor and Sword]

Re: Another Year of the Show Completely Wasted

I missed this.

I've played at what I would consider to be a decently high level.

You're not wrong. There ARE always players you can count on to come through in a clutch situation. The reality though, is that they don't always come through (people forget those moments for good players).

This happens in the MLB as well.


In the same vein, I've seen many players who no one was counting on in a clutch situation to come through, but they did.

This always happens in the MLB but no one remembers those moments either.

Agree 100%. Baseball is brutal.

And that happens in basketball too. I remember many games where Jordan took the last shot and missed.

[Caulfield]

Re: Another Year of the Show Completely Wasted

I missed this.

I've played at what I would consider to be a decently high level.


You're not wrong. There ARE always players you can count on to come through in a clutch situation. The reality though, is that they don't always come through (people forget those moments for good players).


This happens in the MLB as well.




In the same vein, I've seen many players who no one was counting on in a clutch situation to come through, but they did.


This always happens in the MLB but no one remembers those moments either.

not me. Bucky ******* Dent is the word in the Caulfield home.


I also want to reask in case there is a hot take. Might have been glossed over since conversation livened up a bit.
If all clutch ratings were reset to either 99 or zero, would it really matter which? Or would both in theory have the same result?

[BlackBetty15]

Re: Another Year of the Show Completely Wasted

I know next to nothing about the saber metrics side of baseball.

I played baseball through college and was a pitching coach on a team in the D3 College World Series.

In all my time, I've never seen any evidence of anything that shows "clutch" exists.

Good players (like Jeter) perform in pressure situations according to his normal mean.

Very similar to how he performs in non pressure situations but no one likes to point that out.

You really don’t need to be a saber matrix genius to understand this. Clutch absolutely exists in life and is extremely hard to replicate in games. I hate the rating schemes in sport games because there really is no separation that matters. For instance...clutch is a numerical value representing the probability of a successful outcome in what the CPU determines is a critical point in the game. Let’s say: Jeter has a 98 rating...that would mean based on his rating and situation...that rating represents the probability of a successful outcome depending on the swing type vs pitch location/hot zone/ect...problem is...EA/SCEA/2K put a value for this rating at 1-99...so really...how can you quantify a clutch rating of Jeter for 98 vs say...for arguments sake Altuve at 94...What’s the difference...and I swear Woodweaver you can’t because the percentage is so small it doesn’t even matter amd doesn’t replicate anything close to the statistical nature your trying to recreate. I have always been a fan of the 5 point increment system. That’s a true separation. Anyways...I have no real dawg in this fight. It’s a sport wide issue that will not go away. But for this thread clutch is absolutely essential and needed as it pertains to real ball. Ask any coach who walks certain players when the game is on the line.

[kehlis]

Re: Another Year of the Show Completely Wasted

You really don’t need to be a saber matrix genius to understand this.

You understand that "saber metrics* genius'" are the one's who claim clutch doesn't exist right?

[ML]

Re: Another Year of the Show Completely Wasted

not me. Bucky ******* Dent is the word in the Caulfield home.


I also want to reask in case there is a hot take. Might have been glossed over since conversation livened up a bit.
If all clutch ratings were reset to either 99 or zero, would it really matter which? Or would both in theory have the same result?

I think they produce the same result, whether it’s 99, 50, or 0.

I have the same thoughts on this as A&S where the clutch performances do not bother me as much as others, or else I’d probably do some testing.


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[ML]

Re: Another Year of the Show Completely Wasted

I wonder if a “solid hits with RISP” slider was added, it would remedy people’s issues that they are seeing.


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[Caulfield]

Re: Another Year of the Show Completely Wasted

But for this thread clutch is absolutely essential and needed as it pertains to real ball. Ask any coach who walks certain players when the game is on the line.

Spoiler

I think a mgr. is playing the percentages when this happens. MVP Joe is a .380 hitter all-time, but when there is RISP, he's walking the Mendoza line for the last year. If the percentages dictate it, he's IBB. if a nine hole hitter is hitting .500 w/risp (in say, 50 PA's) but cant hit his weight overall, then I'm pitching to him, instead of trying to get a leadoff guy out, who really doesn't hit any better, stat-wise, w/risp or wo/risp.

What I have considered doing is rerate pitchers clutch in the Show according to WHIP and position players clutch according to their OPS. I think I'd just rather have the very good players play well no matter what the situation and weaker players not so much. I just really think clutch is one of those things that cant be weighed, like ''heart''.
not really germane or essential but...

Spoiler

And another thing when thinking of clutch, I think of a football team going for it on 4th and short and a game in the balance. This is as clutch a moment you'll get but earlier in the same game, same circumstances, coach elects to punt. His team isnt ''clutch'' anymore? No, he's playing the percentages.

Lot of great stuff in this thread but at this point I feel like I'm cluttering it more than anything, so I'm bowing out at this point. Will continue to read though.