2013 The Show Official Trade Discussion Thread

[WaitTilNextYear]

Re: 2013 The Show Official Trade Discussion Thread

PS amphetamines, like Sudafed or Ephedrine--banned because of a certain Orioles pitcher dying due to dehydration. I don't need wiki--they were banned for a death not performance enhancement. They did not exactly have HGH in the 60s and we know more about them now. Like, dehydration which is why he died and accelerated heart rates. You take a prescription dose of pseudoephedrine and go on a jog or play basketball and then try telling me it is a PED. It causes you to work twice as hard hence the weight loss and fen-phen rage of the 90s. It is like you ran twice as far as you really did and takes that much more out of you. And don't do it when your heartrate is already accelerated due to fever or illness. You might die, too. If not for that, amphetamines might not even be banned.

Maybe he was just trying to stay awake to study for finals? Oh oh it could have been Viagara, ya know, heightened libido?! LOL swinging his bat around off the field! That is absurdity at its worst!

Ah, Steve Bechler was his name.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/2003-02-20-cover-ephedrine-baseball_x.htm

Let's not derail this thread further. PM if you want to continue but I hope you get it now.

Amphetemines are absolutely a performance enhancer. Amphetemine salt is found in most ADD medication. It is essentially speed that allows someone to focus more than usually and have an inordiante amount of energy. They are banned by the NFL as well (Richard Sherman got suspended for adderol) and weight loss has performance enhancing abilities so if that was what they were being used for than it wouldn't make it any less of a PED. Just my two cents not meant to start a forum clogging debate I just thought I would share my knowledge

Yeah, amphetamines are well known performance enhancers. I don't see why rjackson wishes to ignore the obvious. It's pharmacologically irrefutable. I have a graduate degree in chemistry if anyone would like to debate this point.

Also, there may well be *risks* from taking amphetamines and there certainly are several hundreds of adverse cases, but that doesn't mean it's not a PED because it can be harmful. Steroids and HGH are also harmful in certain doses and taken for certain periods of time; would that fact they are harmful lead you to believe they are also not PEDs? Of course not.

A PED can and, in fact, usually is a harmful substance. The dosage being the key thing.

Amphetamines "enhance" performance and that's one of the reasons cops have such trouble subduing meth heads and you hear about crazy bath salt people (mostly in FLA, lol). Your point about amphetamines and aerobic exercise is not all that relevant since 95% of baseball is standing in one place. Needless to say, baseball is not a particularly aerobically challenging sport.

I hope you get it now, friend.

About derailing the thread..I don't really get the "thread police" thing when people can/will easily skip over this. Plus it's at least somewhat relevant to how to value players who have a checkered PED past as well as how to value ancient Phillie position players--there have been a lot of Ruiz/Utley/Lee questions in here lately.

[WaitTilNextYear]

Re: 2013 The Show Official Trade Discussion Thread

WTNY, I am not disagreeing that this would be the better way to run a franchise, but many GMs don't worry about the long run. It is about keeping their jobs as long as they can. AA went down this road and trade deadline deals for him are not about competing this year, I thought I made that clear. He is having two winters essentially, trying to reload for next year. Toronto is not exactly a free agent destination, they have limited resources, and this is a window partially made for them and by them. Therefore, this deal WOULD make sense IF Utley was not a free agent after this year. He is though, and why I think this is a rumor with no real truth to it.

Part of keeping that GM job is knowing how much to give up and in what context. I think we both agree that Lawrie is too much for that particular return. But, in general, I see a lot of people regurgitate exactly what you've said (bold above), but if that were true, why would GMs ever trade away veterans for prospects? That's not a "now" move is it? In some cases the development cycle is 4-5 years, so it's not, and I can't stress this enough, all about the immediate term. GMs who look too closely at the immediate term tend to get ambushed down the road and fired then, when their "win-now" team retires/gets too expensive/injuries etc...So, I'm not sure where this "GMs are only concerned about their job security for the immediate future" thing came from, but it misses at least part of the point. The best GMs can do both.

[AC]

Re: 2013 The Show Official Trade Discussion Thread

Not to get into the way of this wonderfully off topic debate about steriods and such, Matt Garza's price has been set. This is not to be discussed unless you vehemently disagree, as it is off topic *ahem*. Jon Schoop and Eduardo Rodriguez.

Well I have heard a rumor that Lawrie Romero is being shopped and maybe for young utley and Ruiz. Just rumors but it makes sense for both. Maybe throw in ruf

Er, um, yeah, about that, um...

That is total, pure, unfiltered, complete, absolute BS of the highest degree.

[rjackson]

Re: 2013 The Show Official Trade Discussion Thread

The thread police mentality is simple courtesy because people come to this thread for trade discussion and not to see WTNY save face or try to win an argument. I am done after this and am only responding because 1. your misrepresentations that you made public and 2. the GM portion is at least trade discussion worthy.

Fact: 1st time offenders of MLB PED policy are suspended for 50 games. Ruiz was suspended 25 games for a 2nd offense, hence MLB does not recognize Ruiz's amphetamine as a PED. If it was "speed", then it would have been 50 games under the illegal drug use policy ala Singleton from HOU.

Fact: I stated nowhere that if it can by physically harmful, that makes it a PED. I stated that Bechler DIED from ephedrine. Hence, this non-PED policy's reason for existence.

Fact: Having a graduate degree in chemistry does not make you a medical doctor with knowledge of Ruiz's specific case and whether his suspension was ephedrine or adderol based. I'll call you if I ever manage an oil refinery. We know it was not meth or speed through logical deduction making your amphetamines are PEDs argument even more irrelevant.

Fact: Pitchers get plenty of aerobic exercise. Bechler was a pitcher.

Fact: My argument was that Ruiz did not do PEDs. I cannot prove that any further and there is no way that you can disprove that at all. I never stated "no amphetamines in any form are PEDs". I stated specifically pseudoephedrine as that is one of the most likely scenarios of the amphetamine he tested positive for--the other being ADD related that he did not get an approved waiver making it less likely.

DO YOU GET IT NOW?!

The only "checkered past" I see here is that Ruiz's doctor didn't check the list very well when Ruiz got a sinus infection. Stop dragging his name through the mud and misrepresenting the situation. You overstate-heard this before?-what is happening here.

Now, the GM argument. Sure, it seems logical but here's the thing with logic. 1. Dogs have hair. 2. AA has hair. 3. AA is a dog. Simple logic is a fail. You have to be pragmatic, objective, and possess all of the facts.

Here are more facts for you: GM positions have high turnover and low job security. AA is a GM. You cannot dispute these facts.

We do not know how the discussion went when AA walked into his bosses office and said alright, here are two paths we can go down. If he was smart, he did that so his boss accepts some responsibility. Anyways...They chose to go for it this year and failed. He can go in there now and say hey, so and so got hurt and so and so is not that good anymore. But, we can get these players for next year and give it one more shot while this window is open. That would be the smart thing to do. They and many other GMs would sacrifice a couple of years of mediocrity and development for a solid chance at a ring. That ring buys them another chance after that development.

Now, why would a GM ever trade vets for prospects? Budgets. Budgets and projections are HUGE!!!!! I mean HUGE!!!!! Putting players on the field is only ONE aspect of being a GM. You have to beat budget and the better you beat it, the better you look. This trade of vet salary also means you get to save money against your budget RIGHT NOW before your evaluation is due. You are buying yourself another year, essentially. If you also exceed revenue projections, golly, you are getting a raise meester. We don't know where AA or Amaro sit with their boss but if this trade actually occurred (we know it won't), there would be a lot we could deduce from it. It is also why Nolasco's pay is such a sticking point in his dealings right now.

Most trades for prospects are prospects in positions you are good for and are planning to save money down the line like when a player is deep in arbitration or close to free agency. Otherwise, they tend to want near MLB ready talent or MLB talent to fill a hole. Rare is the complete rebuild that Houston is doing or organizations like the 90s Braves. It wouldn't happen if that owner didn't buy into it and hire Luhnow for that specific task or have a GM who can build that rep that Billy Boy and Mozeliak have right now. Protect the short term but build for the long term. The only GM I know that does not plan like this is Amaro.

Your logic seems to lead us to believe that the only prospects traded are the types that are nowhere near MLB ready and that is not the case. If anything, they are throw-ins and side mentions, chances taken which even out the deal or sweeten it depending on your position. They aren't 4-5 year cycles.

Like I said, I'm done with this in this thread. I'm off to bed after a long night's work now. Ciao!

TL;DR
Ruiz was not suspended under MLB's PED policy.
GM's protect their jobs in the short term and build for the long term. Player personnel is not the only measurement of success.

[AC]

Re: 2013 The Show Official Trade Discussion Thread

Okay, screw it. I'm a Blue Jays fan and I'd like to think a fairly knowledgeable one at that, so I'm hopefully going to put an end to this.

Our GM is endlessly stupid. Hopeless stupid. Comically stupid. Laughably stupid. But not even he's stupid enough to trade away Brett Lawrie, he of .330 wOBA for his career AT AGE 23, he of the ~top 4 3B defense IN THE LEAGUE, for two rentals. Ruiz is still useful and Utley is still criminally underrated, but they're fugging rentals. I know our GM and I know that the only piece he'd move Lawrie for is a Michael Pineda-post-rookie-season type piece. A Mat Latos. A young #2 that's still developing. Not two rentals. So let's put an end to this, if that's even what's being debated anymore. Brett Lawrie will not be traded for two rentals. So hopefully that ends this whole GM argument. And this steroids stuff is also fairly ridiculous from both parties. So can we stop this please?

[AC]

Re: 2013 The Show Official Trade Discussion Thread

And in doing my part to get this thread back on damn topic, what do y'all think of a Josh Beckett for Ricky Romero + Emilio Bonifacio trade in the offseason? Romero's got a 3 ERA/DIPS in AAA, Boni's hitting .280 at the MLB level, Beckett's got around a 4 ERA IIRC.

Also, can anyone verify if Brett Anderson becomes an FA after the season, or if he goes into arbitration in the game? Because if he's gonna be an FA, I need to find a trade for him.

[rjackson]

Re: 2013 The Show Official Trade Discussion Thread

Amaro is even more stupid. Just saying. If anderson is a FA, you gotta go after him. IRL Beckett is not worth much but maybe he is useful in your game? What is his salary like?

PS dumb me, I forgot about GNC supplements but still that is probably off season conditioning not drugs present in his on field performance. Sorry.

[BlueJays09]

Re: 2013 The Show Official Trade Discussion Thread

Hey guys sorry for the confusion on Lawrie to Phillies...I was half asleep last night when I read he was looking for Lawrie from Jays and I should have explained better.

Here is a link I read from a dumb Jays analyst:

http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/hayhurst-phillies-an-ideal-trade-partner-for-jays/

Just talks about how Jays would want Ruiz, Utley, and Young and could be looking to trade the immature Lawrie and ****tiy JP...again just talk and he talks about it it makes sense and what not. I didn't say it would be a good idea lol...again sorry for the confusion. No more post while falling asleep

[AC]

Re: 2013 The Show Official Trade Discussion Thread

Dirk Hayhurst isn't even slightly an insider, he's a columnist who's speculating, not exactly a source..

[Coper3000]

Re: 2013 The Show Official Trade Discussion Thread

And in doing my part to get this thread back on damn topic, what do y'all think of a Josh Beckett for Ricky Romero + Emilio Bonifacio trade in the offseason? Romero's got a 3 ERA/DIPS in AAA, Boni's hitting .280 at the MLB level, Beckett's got around a 4 ERA IIRC.

Also, can anyone verify if Brett Anderson becomes an FA after the season, or if he goes into arbitration in the game? Because if he's gonna be an FA, I need to find a trade for him.

Brett A. signed a 4 year extension in 2010 with 2014 & 2015 club options. So it looks like:

2014: $8 million club option (or $1.5 million buyout)
2015: $12 million club option (or $1.5 million buyout)

I miss my A's Franchise (I find it ironically hard to replay a Franchise with a team I already have played as. The Athletics were my first team this year when I had the Astros in my mind the whole time so I scrapped it). But back on-topic, I did pretend that I bought Brett Anderson out as well as Chris Young (OF) during the 2014 offseason. They make possible decent 1 (maybe 2, but I wouldn't do it) year contracts for a team looking to rebuild who needs filler pieces.

[Noles4ever]

Re: 2013 The Show Official Trade Discussion Thread

I like the A's one better for both sides (assuming the As are closer than 7.5 in the Wild Card)

The A's are 1.5 out in the WC behind the Red Sox & Yankees who are tied at the top right now, Blue jays and Orioles are .5 behind the A's. Gonna be a tight race and the A's need a big move at the deadline to really keep up with the WC chase IMO.

[CKW11]

Re: 2013 The Show Official Trade Discussion Thread

I know the O's just signed Hardy to an extension but if they are out of it would it be completely unrealistic to trade him to the Cardinals at the ASB/Trade deadline?

Like I said the O's are out of it, 10 games under .500 last in the east. The Cards are desperate for a SS. Furcal is of course out for the season, Kozma is out for 1-2 months so they're running out Descalso/Ryan Jackson at SS. They are 5 GB the wild card.

[MattGarza13]

Re: 2013 The Show Official Trade Discussion Thread

In my Twins 'Chise through the first 2 months of the season I'm tied for first place with the Royals and Tigers. I've literally had 0 production from my middle infield positions. (Swung deals for Dee Gordon and Lombarozi earlier in the season, neither have worked out) The Yankees are already 10 GB of the Wild card and are awful this season. They've put all their older vets on the trading block.

I was interested in seeing how much Robinson Cano would cost me. Hes having a pretty bad year so far (.252 7 HRs 23 RBIs) so I think the Yankees would be willing to listen to some offers. My Minor league system has been amazing leading to many potential upgrades to an already good system.

Heres my tradeable assets

Oswaldo Arcia OF 22 years old: Highest B hot streak all season, crushing AAA .302 13 HRs 32 RBIs

Travis Harrison 3B 20 years old: Low A, hot streak all season in AAA, .354 9 hrs 24 RBIs

Byron Buxton OF 19 years old: Highest A, hot streak all season in AA, .405 8 HRs 29 RBIs

Miguel Sano 3B 20 years old: Mid A, hot streak in AA, .278, 13 HRs, 31 RBIs

Chris Parmelee OF 25 years old: Low-Mid B potential 25 years old, .250 3 hr 14 RBIs in the MLB. Starter most the season, just benched him recently.

Max Kepler OF 20 years old: Highest B, hot streak all year in AA called him up straight to MLB to start over Parmelee and over the last week has hit .333 with 2 hrs and 6 RBIs.

Alex Meyer SP 23 years old: Mid B, started on cold streak now on hot streak in AA. 4.30 ERA 2nd in AA in strikeouts.

Trevor May SP 23 years old: Low B, Hot streak all year in AA, 2.20 ERA leads AA in strikeouts.

Dan Rohlfing C 24 years old: Low B, batting .265 7 hrs and 19 RBIs in AA.

Eddie Rosario 2B 21 years old: Mid B in single A

Levi Michael 2B 22 years old: Low B, hot streak in AA, .270 2 HRs 15 RBIs.

Kyle Gibson SP 25 years old: Mid-High B, 4.50 ERA in MLB. About a strikeout an inning.

Alex Wimmers SP 24 years old: Low B, 3.80 ERA in AAA. Almost a strikeout per inning.

Jose Berrios SP 19 years old: Mid B, 3.20 ERA in AA. 10.9 K/9

Hudson Boyd SP 20 years old: Low B, 4.10 ERA in AA. 6 K/9

Adam Brett Walker 21 years old: Highest C, hot streak in AA. .310 6 HRs 23 RBIs.

Kennys Vargas 1B 22 years old: low B potential .260 5 hr 19 RBI in AA

Sorry for the long post, just wondering what combination of prospects would be fair to give the Yankees since Cano is on the last year of his deal. I'd prefer to keep Buxton and Sano but understand that one would probably have to be dealt.

[royals19]

Re: 2013 The Show Official Trade Discussion Thread

And in doing my part to get this thread back on damn topic, what do y'all think of a Josh Beckett for Ricky Romero + Emilio Bonifacio trade in the offseason? Romero's got a 3 ERA/DIPS in AAA, Boni's hitting .280 at the MLB level, Beckett's got around a 4 ERA IIRC.

Also, can anyone verify if Brett Anderson becomes an FA after the season, or if he goes into arbitration in the game? Because if he's gonna be an FA, I need to find a trade for him.

I really like the Beckett trade because he's been injured as of late but is a workhorse and still has the ability to front a rotation with good stuff so essentially you're buying at an all time low on a very good arm. LA is short on lefthanded pitching (they'd be in big trouble if Ryu went down) and probably needs more infield depth so Boni would give them a dynamic bench player but they already have Dee Gordon who has higher upside and essentially the same skill set as Boni minus the versatility.

I don't recall seeing Anderson as a Free Agent during the offseason. I'm fairly sure he went to arbitration because I would've seen him otherwise. I checked Baseball Reference and he is scheduled to be a Free Agent following the 2015 season.

[yanks22009]

Re: 2013 The Show Official Trade Discussion Thread

In my 30 team franchise, the Twins were offered Richie Shaffer (A Potential) 3rd basemen from the Rays for Josh Willingham, who is batting .271 with 25 homers and 71 rbi's. What do you think of this trade?