All-Timers Teams

[MysterioMan007]

Re: All-Timers Teams

It's just a personal preference. He played more games in Boston, had more HR's and RBI's there, and won 2 World Series there, as well as his overall stats being almost identical overall. How he didn't win MVP that year w/ Cleveland he did .333/44/165 is baffling, but Texas did have a big year that year and Pudge got all the votes.

I've given enough extra guys for there to be some leeway and anyone can move anyone anywhere they wish once they get the final roster, but since I'm a rabid Red Sox fan, I want my OF of Manny, Ted, and Yaz...I love Lynn, Rice, and Evans as well, but I'm biased, dammit , and I want the Red Sox to have the best team possible when I play through my season. I feel bad making Cleveland weaker, though...I guess I'll just leave him for now and change him over when I start my official season...

[jpup]

Re: All-Timers Teams

Only real things I see wrong with the Reds is that Larkin's defense should be a lot better. Other than Ozzie Smith, he was the best of his era. Davey Concepcion was even better on defense than Larkin. I didn't even look at what you had for Davey because I always use Larkin. I would also have put Adam Dunn on the Reds instead of the Nats.

Again, you did an amazing job and I can easily edit to my liking. Hopefully you will take on such a task for 11 as well. I would love to help. Feel free to ask.

[TripleThreat1973]

Re: All-Timers Teams

It's just a personal preference. He played more games in Boston, had more HR's and RBI's there, and won 2 World Series there, as well as his overall stats being almost identical overall. How he didn't win MVP that year w/ Cleveland he did .333/44/165 is baffling, but Texas did have a big year that year and Pudge got all the votes.

I've given enough extra guys for there to be some leeway and anyone can move anyone anywhere they wish once they get the final roster, but since I'm a rabid Red Sox fan, I want my OF of Manny, Ted, and Yaz...I love Lynn, Rice, and Evans as well, but I'm biased, dammit , and I want the Red Sox to have the best team possible when I play through my season. I feel bad making Cleveland weaker, though...I guess I'll just leave him for now and change him over when I start my official season...

I know.

I was just voicing my preference.

I was also looking at Boston's LF's ... and well, they have some depth. *grin*

[MysterioMan007]

Re: All-Timers Teams

Only real things I see wrong with the Reds is that Larkin's defense should be a lot better. Other than Ozzie Smith, he was the best of his era. Davey Concepcion was even better on defense than Larkin. I didn't even look at what you had for Davey because I always use Larkin. I would also have put Adam Dunn on the Reds instead of the Nats.

Again, you did an amazing job and I can easily edit to my liking. Hopefully you will take on such a task for 11 as well. I would love to help. Feel free to ask.

I will look at this when I play a game with the Reds...I'm going through the spring training schedule right now and I've seen a few things that need correcting. I'm working on it as a I go along, with some face and equipment tweaks as well. I corrected Ken Singleton and Jesse Barfield's appearances, as well as did some face work on a few others. Jack Clark was way too small and I beefed him up a little. It's a work in progress and I'll be looking at working out the kinks. A few of the pitching deliveries, while I didn't really choose them, are way off...if anyone has any input on certain players stances and deliveries, I encourage you to help me out. I have some footage, but editing is taking a long time.

I'll mess around with Larkin's defense a little as I just plugged in numbers when I made the guys from the Roster Tool...I'm not even sure how the defensive numbers are calculated.

[TripleThreat1973]

Re: All-Timers Teams

Only real things I see wrong with the Reds is that Larkin's defense should be a lot better. Other than Ozzie Smith, he was the best of his era. Davey Concepcion was even better on defense than Larkin. I didn't even look at what you had for Davey because I always use Larkin. I would also have put Adam Dunn on the Reds instead of the Nats.

Again, you did an amazing job and I can easily edit to my liking. Hopefully you will take on such a task for 11 as well. I would love to help. Feel free to ask.

I'm not the world's biggest supporter of UZR, especially the year-to-year fluctuations.

However, the 3-years Larkin won the Gold Glove, his UZR rating was -3 ) is average). The same is true for his range factor based defensive metrics.

I don't know who all of these guys are that are viewing Larkin as the best defensive shortstop of his time, but he only won 3 GG (same as Jeter). Compare that to Alomar, who is viewed as the best defensive 2B of his time (10 GG). Interestingly enough, Alomar's defensive metrics are average to slightly below. IMO, and what some other have voiced, is that having a greta defensive 1B like Olerud, takes away some balls that Alomar would get to that other 2Bs might not. So, Olerud has an amazing range score, Alomar does not, even though both are likely very good defenders.

In both of these metrics Ozzie is way above his peers, so there's some credibility to it perhaps.

In terms of Larkin, I think he was probably average to slightly above defensively ... which is no slap seeing how that average ML shortstop is a helluva fielder. Other good defensive SS like Adam Everett and Rafael Furcal score well above average in both defensive metrics, much higher than Larkin.

I would not go crazy with Larkin's fielding raings. Using different systems of defensive metrics, compare Larkin's fielding to say, Brendan Ryan. There's no way that we cna view Larkin as elite unless we can find something that would cause his defensive metrics to be much lower than other elite defenders.

[MysterioMan007]

Re: All-Timers Teams

I know.

I was just voicing my preference.

I was also looking at Boston's LF's ... and well, they have some depth. *grin*

I'll leave him on the Indians. You're right, especially with regards to guys like Reggie Jackson, A-Rod, etc. who made their name with one team, but will probably be remembered for the big market teams they eventually ended up with...

I was being facetious with the 'dammit' part.

[jpup]

Re: All-Timers Teams

I'm not the world's biggest supporter of UZR, especially the year-to-year fluctuations.

However, the 3-years Larkin won the Gold Glove, his UZR rating was -3 ) is average). The same is true for his range factor based defensive metrics.

I don't know who all of these guys are that are viewing Larkin as the best defensive shortstop of his time, but he only won 3 GG (same as Jeter). Compare that to Alomar, who is viewed as the best defensive 2B of his time (10 GG). Interestingly enough, Alomar's defensive metrics are average to slightly below. IMO, and what some other have voiced, is that having a greta defensive 1B like Olerud, takes away some balls that Alomar would get to that other 2Bs might not. So, Olerud has an amazing range score, Alomar does not, even though both are likely very good defenders.

In both of these metrics Ozzie is way above his peers, so there's some credibility to it perhaps.

In terms of Larkin, I think he was probably average to slightly above defensively ... which is no slap seeing how that average ML shortstop is a helluva fielder. Other good defensive SS like Adam Everett and Rafael Furcal score well above average in both defensive metrics, much higher than Larkin.

I would not go crazy with Larkin's fielding raings. Using different systems of defensive metrics, compare Larkin's fielding to say, Brendan Ryan. There's no way that we cna view Larkin as elite unless we can find something that would cause his defensive metrics to be much lower than other elite defenders.

Obviously you never watched Larkin play. In his prime, there was no one better. The only reason he didn't win 10 gold gloves in because of Ozzie. Ozzie is the best ever.

Gold gloves are a joke anyway. Rafael Palmeiro won a gold glove. Jeter won one last year. When these guys played, things were not tracked as they were today either.

[jpup]

Re: All-Timers Teams

BTW, I just hit a walkoff homer with George Foster to beat the Cubs. Great stuff.

[Joey]

Re: All-Timers Teams

The whole defensive ratings argument is almost a moot point in '10 anyway (except for maybe arm strength), as most SS on the game end up being very good defensively regardless. Sounds like that has been addressed and remedied in '11 - looking forward to seeing the difference.

[TripleThreat1973]

Re: All-Timers Teams

Obviously you never watched Larkin play. In his prime, there was no one better. The only reason he didn't win 10 gold gloves in because of Ozzie. Ozzie is the best ever.

Gold gloves are a joke anyway. Rafael Palmeiro won a gold glove. Jeter won one last year. When these guys played, things were not tracked as they were today either.

Obviously Ive never watched im play? Sorry dude, Im not falling for that.

If youre claiming him to be the best defensive shortstop of his time, then youre going to have to prove it. Gold gloves are voted on by the managers and coaches in the league. That doesnt mean that GGs are a great measure ... but managers and coaches tend to find the obvious guys repeatedly.

Neither the managers & coaches nor the defensive metrics show him to be the best defensive shortstop of his time.

If youre going to make that claim, its on you to prove it. Its going to take more than just your word based on what you remember watching.

I have no emotional attachment to whether Larkin was or wasnt the best defensive SS of his time. My memory was that he was not, but got more "glove credit" because he had a good bat.

Were left with trying to examine why Larkins metrics may not reflect his defensive greatness while it is reflected in the metrics of other good defensive shortstops. I pointed out how the metrics might be affected in Alomars case. Im not seeing a decent reason for why Larkins metrics and awards would be closer to average than elite.

It could be that he is just tremendously under-rated by managers, coaches, metrics, etc ... but one would need to have some type of evidence for that being true. An opinion is not evidence.

[TripleThreat1973]

Re: All-Timers Teams

The whole defensive ratings argument is almost a moot point in '10 anyway (except for maybe arm strength), as most SS on the game end up being very good defensively regardless. Sounds like that has been addressed and remedied in '11 - looking forward to seeing the difference.

Thats how it should be. An average ML shortstop is one helluva an athlete and defender. Think about how many great athletes have had to move to 2B or 3B because even they were not good enough to play a good defensive ML shortstop.

Saying someone is a "league average defender" at shortstop is a helluva compliment.

[Joey]

Re: All-Timers Teams

Sorry, but I don't necessarily agree with the "That's how it should be" comment. Only because, obviously, not everyone is equal; if they were then there would be no such thing as Defensive Replacements. But it sounds like '11 will more accurately display the flashy gloves and better range of the really good one's with the "tiered animations" system they're instituting.

But enough about cluttering up Mysterio's thread. Back on topic.

Mysterio, I have to quit coming in to your thread or I'm never going to finish my '86 season! Every time I come in and read what you have done (or read about someone hitting a walkoff homerun), I have to use up valuable "play time" with your rosters instead of my season!

Thats how it should be. An average ML shortstop is one helluva an athlete and defender. Think about how many great athletes have had to move to 2B or 3B because even they were not good enough to play a good defensive ML shortstop.

Saying someone is a "league average defender" at shortstop is a helluva compliment.

[MysterioMan007]

Re: All-Timers Teams

Sorry, but I don't necessarily agree with the "That's how it should be" comment. Only because, obviously, not everyone is equal; if they were then there would be no such thing as Defensive Replacements. But it sounds like '11 will more accurately display the flashy gloves and better range of the really good one's with the "tiered animations" system they're instituting.

But enough about cluttering up Mysterio's thread. Back on topic.

Mysterio, I have to quit coming in to your thread or I'm never going to finish my '86 season! Every time I come in and read what you have done (or read about someone hitting a walkoff homerun), I have to use up valuable "play time" with your rosters instead of my season!

Well, if it helps, with the '86 Mets in your rosters, I routed Roger Clemens at Fenway for about 6-7 runs in the first inning and had him run out of there by the 2nd inning...I could play at Fenway for every game, I believe...no worries on the cluttering, the topic is become interesting and I sometimes feel like I'm talking to myself, anyway, lol I have no opinion on Larkin's defense one way or the other...

[capa]

Re: All-Timers Teams

If you get a chance, the best windups for Koufax and Whitey Ford are Generic 14. They always raised their hands over their head during the windup.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDgMXFBHLP0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCSmMUzGqJM

C

[MysterioMan007]

Re: All-Timers Teams

If you get a chance, the best windups for Koufax and Whitey Ford are Generic 14. They always raised their hands over their head during the windup.

C

Thanks...and done.