Why did they take out zone hitting?

[baa7]

Re: Why did they take out zone hitting?

I'm actually surprised that the people that claim to play baseball don't realize how important timing is and that they don't think about where they swing. They do it automatically.

Look, pretty up timed swinging all you want. Just don't start justifying it by suggesting others "don't realize" this, that or whatever. Bottomline, a timed-only hitting system is half a system. It's like having a pitching system where you don't have to bother about aiming your pitch.

[CMH]

Re: Why did they take out zone hitting?

I dont think it's that people don't understand timing in baseball... timing in a video game is quite a bit easier than timing your swing in real life. I think the idea of zone hitting or cursor based was used to help simulate a real life baseball swing. Of course, its timing and reaction in real life and you dont actually "aim" your swing... but because a button press to make contact is quite a bit easier than actually swinging in real life to make contact, developers actually "broke down" the actual real life swing by incorporating an "aiming" or "zoning" factor.

Agreed that timing in a video game is easier. But isn't pitching also? The truth is, it's a video game and everything about baseball will be easier with a control.

But to make it more difficult by including a system that isn't true-to-life is more upsetting to me. Cursor-system is not true-to-life.

I won't argue against zone. I love zone. I guess like my post above I just want zone to have more dimensions in influencing a swing rather than be so limiting. With analog swinging, I think that should become a reality very soon.

[CMH]

Re: Why did they take out zone hitting?

Look, pretty up timed swinging all you want. Just don't start justifying it by suggesting others "don't realize" this, that or whatever. Bottomline, a timed-only hitting system is half a system. It's like having a pitching system where you don't have to bother about aiming your pitch.

They obviously don't when they keep saying that timing matters too much.

It's not half the system. Timing is probably more like 80-90% of the system in real life.

And I don't need to justify the truth. It's out there.

[The Bimmer]

Re: Why did they take out zone hitting?

They obviously don't when they keep saying that timing matters too much.

It's not half the system. Timing is probably more like 80-90% of the system in real life.

And I don't need to justify the truth. It's out there.

[Knight165]

Re: Why did they take out zone hitting?

Sorry...but if you are saying that hitting is timing ONLY....that's just flat out wrong IMO.
Maybe the actual hitting process is too difficult to actually implement in a game, but to say that a player is always on the ball and only early or late will judge whether he hits the ball or not is laughable.
Are you going to seriously tell me that a guy looking for a fastball(and players think before a pitch for sure) and then gets a filthy 12-6 curve(or vice versa) is missing because he was late?...or early...
Yeah...the player adjusts automatically....but he could still be adjusting to the wrong spot in the zone...he may see the ball coming in upper middle of the plate....start his swing and the ball winds up in the lower outside corner....he could have the timing down perfectly and still miss that ball.

Yikes....

M.K.
Knight165

[CMH]

Re: Why did they take out zone hitting?

Sorry...but if you are saying that hitting is timing ONLY....that's just flat out wrong IMO.
Maybe the actual hitting process is too difficult to actually implement in a game, but to say that a player is always on the ball and only early or late will judge whether he hits the ball or not is laughable.
Are you going to seriously tell me that a guy looking for a fastball(and players think before a pitch for sure) and then gets a filthy 12-6 curve(or vice versa) is missing because he was late?...or early...
Yeah...the player adjusts automatically....but he could still be adjusting to the wrong spot in the zone...he may see the ball coming in upper middle of the plate....start his swing and the ball winds up in the lower outside corner....he could have the timing down perfectly and still miss that ball.

Yikes....

M.K.
Knight165

But I don't think anyone here said timing is the only factor...

[Pared]

Re: Why did they take out zone hitting?

Look, pretty up timed swinging all you want. Just don't start justifying it by suggesting others "don't realize" this, that or whatever. Bottomline, a timed-only hitting system is half a system. It's like having a pitching system where you don't have to bother about aiming your pitch.

Completely agree.

If I'm a hitter and I'm swinging up because I'm fooled on a breaking ball... then the game should reflect that.

Make the hitting system too heavily dependent on timing only and you're hand-holding the user.

[Knight165]

Re: Why did they take out zone hitting?

But I don't think anyone here said timing is the only factor...

Okay....you guys aren't saying that....but what is determining where the bat goes through the zone in the game?....is it always hitting as KG said...and just a matter of timing it?....is it a random miss up and down off the ball?....contact rating?......

This is one of the main reasons I prefer manage only mode. Introducing a user into the hitting process(and pitching for that matter) in a game is the first and largest step to making the simulation of baseball unrealistic IMO.


M.K.
Knight165

[bsb13]

Re: Why did they take out zone hitting?

This I think is a delicate topic that will never satisfy anyone.

Zone-hitting also doesn't solve this problem as zone-hitting is 9-dimensional.

I'm sure you will agree that when a hitter swings above or below a pitch he misses by inches. 9-dimensions are too drastic of a difference. If we had maybe 18 or 27 then I think we'd be getting somewhere.

So this is why it's delicate.

The only other way to simulate this is through ratings. Does Giambi's ratings and IE say that he is likely to swing over the top of a curveball on a 1-2 count? Now ratings kick in and results in user missing the pitch that is still timed pretty well - at least one can hope that's how it is done.

Obviously, there will be a side that will say that they don't like this. "I want control." And I understand that.

I personally think that ratings should be responsible for up/under swings in order to separate players. If you give the user too much control then every player is the same. There is no difference between Giambi and Chone Figgins.

That's why I like the trajectory rating that is not user-controlled. Now, you won't be able to make Figgins a homerun hitter if he isn't one.

Wasn't the general problem with hitting that guys that shouldn't hit homeruns were hitting them? Seems lke that problem may be solved.

But again, very delicate issue and I understand why someone would want that control. I just personally believe that the more you want something the sim the more control you have to take away from the user. It's the nature of the beast.

You make some good points. I guess what it comes down to is what hitting system is the most fun for the individual, and for me, that would be zone.

Just add the option to use swing stick, zone, or cursor hitting so everyone will be happy.

[djep]

Re: Why did they take out zone hitting?

My issue with every zone hitting interface I've ever tried is that the location of the pitch has very little impact on where the batted ball goes. Zone hitting definitely does a better job of simulating the art of making contact but I can hit an inside pitch the other way exactly as I do on an outside pitch and that's just not realistic to me. I really enjoyed the MVP system of "hit it where it's pitched" and I like how 2K is running with the idea and adding in the swing stick where the timing of the batter's stride is taken into account.

[CMH]

Re: Why did they take out zone hitting?

Completely agree.

If I'm a hitter and I'm swinging up because I'm fooled on a breaking ball... then the game should reflect that.

Make the hitting system too heavily dependent on timing only and you're hand-holding the user.

This is why I suggest we see a deeper zone-hitting system in a video game. One that can accurately reflect the minute differences in a swing. One that wouldn't heavily penalize someone for swinging up on a curve in the dirt.

Because MLB players don't swing up on curve's in the dirt. Every replay will show a guy bending his knees to reach the curve in the dirt.

So what do you think really caused the miss? Timing comes first and then comes swing placement. Most guys will swing over a pitch because they swung too early (which is the case with most curves in the dirt).

But it's still not as drastic as a 9-dimensional zone hitting system.

I think people are misunderstanding where I'm coming from. They see timed hitting and they immediately think I'm saying that timing is 100% everything and that guys don't swing over or under pitches. I never said that.

[Pared]

Re: Why did they take out zone hitting?

I think people are misunderstanding where I'm coming from. They see timed hitting and they immediately think I'm saying that timing is 100% everything and that guys don't swing over or under pitches. I never said that.

It's the misinterpretation where you agreed with KG that timing is everything.

It's really 50-50. To exaggerate an example to prove my point, look at a sac bunt: timing isn't a factor as your bat should be out waiting on the pitch. Bat placement is key. Using the previous example, any ball in the strike zone easily becomes a bunt, unless you tie the game too heavily into ratings, taking away user impact. Defeats the purpose of having an interactive system.

mjb is a huge proponent of the 360 degree zone hitting interface and I agree with him; It was zone hitting at its finest.

[PVarck31]

Re: Why did they take out zone hitting?

http://www.exploratorium.edu/baseball/reactiontime.html

Check this out! If Hitting was made to be ultra realistic in videogames, this is how we would play.

[CMH]

Re: Why did they take out zone hitting?

Okay....you guys aren't saying that....but what is determining where the bat goes through the zone in the game?....is it always hitting as KG said...and just a matter of timing it?....is it a random miss up and down off the ball?....contact rating?......

This is one of the main reasons I prefer manage only mode. Introducing a user into the hitting process(and pitching for that matter) in a game is the first and largest step to making the simulation of baseball unrealistic IMO.


M.K.
Knight165

This I don't know. It seems from KushGamer's comments that ratings will determine whether a hitter swings above or below a pitch.

I agree that once you give the gamer the controller then you're throwing away sim.

That's why I said that the more you want sim the more you have to take away from the user. MoM solves that issue 100%. But if you still want to play the game then you have to give way to ratings along with user-input.

For the guys that say they want to miss badly if they swing up on a low curve, cool. I get that. My opinion, however, is that a MLB player would never do that so I want the game to auto-correct my mistake by just having the hitter hit the pitch weakly or miss - but I don't want to see the animation look awkward where the guy is swinging by his shoulders and the pitch is in the dirt. That would take away the realism for me.

But, that's just me.

Like, I'm sorry I forgot your name, said just now...Just give us all of the options and let people play how they want. That's always been my opinion on sports games. Let me decide.

If ratings determine something then how about you give us the option to say, "No. I want to control that aspect." Options are great.

[CMH]

Re: Why did they take out zone hitting?

mjb is a huge proponent of the 360 degree zone hitting interface and I agree with him; It was zone hitting at its finest.

You say "it was". When?