Coco Crisp to Boston....

[Ckhoss29]

Re: Boston to trade Marte and Mota for Crisp

Sounds like Mota's failing could be in part because the Reds are interested in getting back into the mix. The Red Sox would send Clement to the Reds who would send Kearns to the Indians who would send Crisp to Boston. If the Red Sox could work something out where they weren't giving up Marte, I'd be very impressed. If not, they should just acquire Kearns now that O'Brien is out of the picture in Cincy.

There is no way in He!! that the Sox have a chance of landing Crisp without Marte, he is the main reason why Shapiro was going to trade Crisp.

Austin Kearns for Crisp is a ripoff and anyone else besides Marte the Indians don't want from the Sox, Mota was just a guy to sweeten the deal.

Face it if the Red Sox get Crisp they won't have Marte anymore.

[Stu]

Re: Boston to trade Marte and Mota for Crisp

There is no way in He!! that the Sox have a chance of landing Crisp without Marte, he is the main reason why Shapiro was going to trade Crisp.

Austin Kearns for Crisp is a ripoff and anyone else besides Marte the Indians don't want from the Sox, Mota was just a guy to sweeten the deal.

Face it if the Red Sox get Crisp they won't have Marte anymore.

That's not true. This Reds rumor isn't a new one. The Red Sox and Indians had been involving the Reds up until the point where they said they wouldn't give up Kearns. Now that the Reds GM has been fired, those talks are picking back up. The rumor involving the Reds has Clement, Kearns and Crisp as the main players, with some B prospects being moved around as well. Do you really thing the Red Sox would give up Clement and Marte to get Crisp if they could just get Kearns for Clement?

[Misfit]

Re: Boston to trade Marte and Mota for Crisp

I don't understand why the Red Sox wouldn't just leave Cleveland out altogether. Can Kearns not play CF?

A lot of the front office people with Boston really like Crisp and must just value him over Kearns. Crisp also would make for a better lead-off hitter.

[Stu]

Re: Boston to trade Marte and Mota for Crisp

From Gammons on WEEI:

- Doesn’t look good for the Cleveland trade right now.
- Deal with Cleveland might happen if we add a prospect, but doesn’t think the Sox will do that.
- Thinks Sox will find a way to do the deal and Coco will open as our CF because we need it so badly

Thanks for clearing things up for us Peter.

[CWood2]

Re: Boston to trade Marte and Mota for Crisp

In that three way deal, we were supposed to get Crisp, Riske and Bard...all for Matt Clement! I realize the Reds backed out, but the Indians were going to offer all that for Austin Kearns as originally reported by Jason Stark. Sounds too good to be true, but that's what I saw this morning at a few sites. Now...that was a week ago before O'Brien got the ax. Kearns still was coming off a bad year with a AAA demotion, Coco Crisp was no worse than his great numbers, and Matt Clement had already had a bad second half. Knowing Shapiro was willing, this all but confirms what I've been saying that this deal in it's original form (6 player swap) clearly favored the Indians. And now that Riske, an upgrade over Mota, won't be included due to Guillermo's arm, why are we supposed to include Delcarmen who has more value than both of those guys?? Gammons reporting we're reluctant to do that isn't all that surprising, but it's a relief nonetheless.

My greatest hope is that we can find a way to get Crisp or maybe even Kearns and be able to keep Marte. But comparatively, we've gone from fleecing the Indians a week ago had O'Brien pulled the trigger to making a risky deal AT BEST based largely on need. My greatest fear, however, is that we've regressed so much from that three way and allowed Shapiro to fall in love with a Marte deal that we may be unable to get it done even with the Reds new GM.

[CWood2]

Re: Boston to trade Marte and Mota for Crisp

Thanks for clearing things up for us Peter.

Yeah, really. His column is way outdated and his last assumption on air was that Tejada would be our shortstop. I think somebody is taking it easy after that HOF induction, or spending too much time with the bass guitar...

[Stu]

Re: Boston to trade Marte and Mota for Crisp

In that three way deal, we were supposed to get Crisp, Riske and Bard...all for Matt Clement! I realize the Reds backed out, but the Indians were going to offer all that for Austin Kearns as originally reported by Jason Stark. Sounds too good to be true, but that's what I saw this morning at a few sites. Now...that was a week ago before O'Brien got the ax. Kearns still was coming off a bad year with a AAA demotion, Coco Crisp was no worse than his great numbers, and Matt Clement had already had a bad second half. Knowing Shapiro was willing, this all but confirms what I've been saying that this deal in it's original form (6 player swap) clearly favored the Indians. And now that Riske, an upgrade over Mota, won't be included due to Guillermo's arm, why are we supposed to include Delcarmen who has more value than both of those guys?? Gammons reporting we're reluctant to do that isn't all that surprising, but it's a relief nonetheless.

My greatest hope is that we can find a way to get Crisp or maybe even Kearns and be able to keep Marte. But comparatively, we've gone from fleecing the Indians a week ago had O'Brien pulled the trigger to making a risky deal AT BEST based largely on need. My greatest fear, however, is that we've regressed so much from that three way and allowed Shapiro to fall in love with a Marte deal that we may be unable to get it done even with the Reds new GM.

The original deal with Cincy didn't include Riske and Bard. Some B prospects might have been moved around but not other major players than the 3 named.

I think Shapiro is in love with Marte and Kearns, both of which are understandable. The only question now is, which does he favor? Obviously a deal where the Red Sox give Clement and get Crisp would be ideal but I would certainly take Kearns instead if Cleveland insists on having Marte, especially if a guy like Jay Payton is available now that the A's signed Frank Thomas.

I think the problems with Mota/Riske was that Cleveland was expecting Mota to be their setup man which Riske obviously wasn't. The Red Sox, having seen his medical records were probably a little more realistic as to how much Mota can produce, which is why they valued Riske more. This doesn't mean Mota can't be an effective pitcher for us next year however.

[CWood2]

Re: Boston to trade Marte and Mota for Crisp

The original deal with Cincy didn't include Riske and Bard. Some B prospects might have been moved around but not other major players than the 3 named.

I think Shapiro is in love with Marte and Kearns, both of which are understandable. The only question now is, which does he favor? Obviously a deal where the Red Sox give Clement and get Crisp would be ideal but I would certainly take Kearns instead if Cleveland insists on having Marte, especially if a guy like Jay Payton is available now that the A's signed Frank Thomas.

I think the problems with Mota/Riske was that Cleveland was expecting Mota to be their setup man which Riske obviously wasn't. The Red Sox, having seen his medical records were probably a little more realistic as to how much Mota can produce, which is why they valued Riske more. This doesn't mean Mota can't be an effective pitcher for us next year however.

Agreed on all acounts, and I would take Kearns too if Crisp's price tag has inflated when we try to revisit this. More options can only help us. Good point about Mota too, I'm still optimistic he can help us this year even if he's no longer a bargaining chip on the open market. I prefer Crisp to Kearns, but really, I'd only trade for him if Marte stays under the assumption that Clement can still net Kearns.

[Misfit]

Re: Boston to trade Marte and Mota for Crisp

I'd love it if the deal could get done with just the three main players involved, Clement, Kearns, and Crisp. The Red Sox would be trading from a surplus to fill a need which is the best case scenario.

[Stu]

Re: Boston to trade Marte and Mota for Crisp

I think the big questions at this point are: How much power does the Reds interim GM have to make moves and Whether or not Shapiro will insist on Marte

[Ckhoss29]

Re: Boston to trade Marte and Mota for Crisp

Actually the original deal with the Reds for Kearns was Westbrook for him. Let's see the GM of the year trading a .300 hitter with 15 homer pop to the Red Sox for Kearns to the Indians, I don't see that happening and have not heard a thing about it. The only way the Indians give up Crisp is for Marte not Kearns the Indians don't need him that bad. The latest I have heard was a 9 player deal that had the Indians getting both Kearns and Marte and giving up Crisp along with prospects.

If you have a link to what gammons said please post it, but if you don't know what is really going on it is all speculation at this point.

[CWood2]

Re: Boston to trade Marte and Mota for Crisp

Actually the original deal with the Reds for Kearns was Westbrook for him. Let's see the GM of the year trading a .300 hitter with 15 homer pop to the Red Sox for Kearns to the Indians, I don't see that happening and have not heard a thing about it. The only way the Indians give up Crisp is for Marte not Kearns the Indians don't need him that bad. The latest I have heard was a 9 player deal that had the Indians getting both Kearns and Marte and giving up Crisp along with prospects.

If you have a link to what gammons said please post it, but if you don't know what is really going on it is all speculation at this point.

If you get Marte and Kearns and all we get is Crisp after giving up more...well let's just say my hat's off to Shapiro. Unless you're giving up a top pitching prospect named Miller or Sowers or a guy named Garko, I don't see that either.

Gammons was on WEEI this afternoon, so no link. As I said, he hasn't updated his Insider column in a while, so camulos was just recapping the high points.

[Ckhoss29]

Re: Boston to trade Marte and Mota for Crisp

Ahh ok I believe you but, Shapiro will want a large return for Crisp since it is not like the indians have to move him and the guy that Shap covets is Marte he has wanted him since the beginning of last year, so Kearns for Crisp really is trading down and I don't think that would ever happen.

So once again my belief is that if Marte is not in the deal Coco won't be going anywhere.

[Stu]

Re: Boston to trade Marte and Mota for Crisp

Ahh ok I believe you but, Shapiro will want a large return for Crisp since it is not like the indians have to move him and the guy that Shap covets is Marte he has wanted him since the beginning of last year, so Kearns for Crisp really is trading down and I don't think that would ever happen.

So once again my belief is that if Marte is not in the deal Coco won't be going anywhere.

You're overrating the value of Crisp and underrating the value of Kearns to the Indians. Don't get me wrong, I like Crisp and would love to have him on the Red Sox but he doesn't hold as much value playing LF for the Indians instead of CF. Crisp's numbers are somewhat pedestrian for a LF, but are pretty solid for a CF.

In trading for Kearns, they'd be acquiring a player that has the potential to give them a lot more production out of LF. Kearns numbers are comperable to Crisp, if not better. He has a higher career OBP and SLG than Crisp not to mention that he's a year younger and costs less. You only have to look at the numbers he put up as a 22 year old rookie to see what he's capable of. Granted, his career hasn't taken off as expected due to some fluke injuries (broken arm on HBP) but they'd be getting a better offensive player than Crisp to play a position where offense is coveted.

Shapiro might covet Marte but that won't prevent him from exploring other options that would make the Indians better. Not sure where you heard about the Indians getting Kearns and Marte, but that sounds like a longshot to me.

Bill James projections for 2006:
Kearns: .270 .363 .497 .860 20 HR 65 R 71 RBI
Crisp: .296 .348 .442 .789 13 HR 86 R 64 RBI

[Ckhoss29]

Re: Boston to trade Marte and Mota for Crisp

You're overrating the value of Crisp and underrating the value of Kearns to the Indians. Don't get me wrong, I like Crisp and would love to have him on the Red Sox but he doesn't hold as much value playing LF for the Indians instead of CF. Crisp's numbers are somewhat pedestrian for a LF, but are pretty solid for a CF.

In trading for Kearns, they'd be acquiring a player that has the potential to give them a lot more production out of LF. Kearns numbers are comperable to Crisp, if not better. He has a higher career OBP and SLG than Crisp not to mention that he's a year younger and costs less. You only have to look at the numbers he put up as a 22 year old rookie to see what he's capable of. Granted, his career hasn't taken off as expected due to some fluke injuries (broken arm on HBP) but they'd be getting a better offensive player than Crisp to play a position where offense is coveted.

Shapiro might covet Marte but that won't prevent him from exploring other options that would make the Indians better. Not sure where you heard about the Indians getting Kearns and Marte, but that sounds like a longshot to me.

Bill James projections for 2006:
Kearns: .270 .363 .497 .860 20 HR 65 R 71 RBI
Crisp: .296 .348 .442 .789 13 HR 86 R 64 RBI

The only thing is the chemistry of Crisp and the little things he brings to the table, the sox are the ones so interested in crisp and I think they will do anything they can to aquire him. I don't care what kearns projects for 2006 I care about a proven major leaguer for a guy that was sent back down last year at the age of 25.

On the other hand you have potential again with Marte, but the difference being that Marte fills the void of the tribe not having a viable replacment for next year and he projects to be a better player than both crisp and Kearns.

They do however have an abundance of outfield prospects that very well could take over next year for crisp.

Last I heard is that the indians are actually still looking at the possibilty of landing Kearns on their own and then turning around trading Crisp to the Sox, remember the Indians don't have to make a deal here they are not the ones with a pressing need like the Red Sox have because face it if they held on to Crisp it would be the popular move to do in Cleveland. The Red Sox need a true centerfielder and right now it seems like they will do everything in their power to aquire one.

As for the nine player deal it was quoted in the boston herald yesterday and said the Clement would go to the reds, no other players
were mentioned.

And this is from rotoworld:

"We're still not sure of the details here, but as reported earlier, Matt Clement would likely go to Cincinnati and Austin Kearns would be sent to Cleveland. We assume Andy Marte would still go Cleveland. Also, the agreed-upon Jason Michaels-for-Arthur Rhodes swap would probably be killed off. Jan. 25 - 3:28 am"