Trevor Hoffman

[BGarrett7]

Re: Trevor Hoffman

Forget the rest of the stats and focus on just one.

Isn't that what the majority of this thread has been about -- only with saves instead of ERA+.

[BatsareBugs]

Re: Trevor Hoffman

Please, don't turn this into a Rivera vs. Hoffman thread. There's already many of those.

I made this thread to commerate and countdown Hoffman's chase for Lee Smith's record, not to create the infamous closer war that we've seen over and over the past couple of years.

Likewise I will do the same for Rivera when he gets to Hoffman's (barring a career ending injury/blowup) record (given he's two years younger and unless something drastic happens to him that cuts his career short of that, I would expect him to put up 500 saves as well).

[Rainey]

Re: Trevor Hoffman

Ok so show me another stat other than one that isnt completely team dependent (such as saves) that proves me wrong.

ERA? Rivera.
WHIP? Rivera
K/BB ratio is the only area where Hoffman has him beat and that is barely

I believe Rivera is a better closer, but I think Rivera's WHIP of 1.04 is just BARELY better than Hoffman's 1.05.

I think HR's allowed would be a better stat to show an advantage Rivera has.


However, all baseball stats are team dependent to some degree... so to try and discount some statistics more than others based on that is not always possible.

[Kelverin]

Re: Trevor Hoffman

Please, don't turn this into a Rivera vs. Hoffman thread. There's already many of those.

I made this thread to commerate and countdown Hoffman's chase for Lee Smith's record, not to create the infamous closer war that we've seen over and over the past couple of years.

Likewise I will do the same for Rivera when he gets to Hoffman's (barring a career ending injury/blowup) record (given he's two years younger and unless something drastic happens to him that cuts his career short of that, I would expect him to put up 500 saves as well).

I can repect that. Only do not tell me that Rivera is soooooo much better than Hoffman, like they are not even close. There is nothing to back it up.

[deeman11747]

Re: Trevor Hoffman

Please, don't turn this into a Rivera vs. Hoffman thread. There's already many of those.

I made this thread to commerate and countdown Hoffman's chase for Lee Smith's record, not to create the infamous closer war that we've seen over and over the past couple of years.

Likewise I will do the same for Rivera when he gets to Hoffman's (barring a career ending injury/blowup) record (given he's two years younger and unless something drastic happens to him that cuts his career short of that, I would expect him to put up 500 saves as well).

Your absolutely right. I didnt mean to start anything.

Anyways its a definite congrats to Hoffman as it shows how hard it is to be a closer for a long time. People saw guys like Lidge and Gagne and were so quick to annoint them to Rivera and Hoffman status...and we all have seen how quickly things have changed for them.

[deeman11747]

Re: Trevor Hoffman

I believe Rivera is a better closer, but I think Rivera's WHIP of 1.04 is just BARELY better than Hoffman's 1.05.

I think HR's allowed would be a better stat to show an advantage Rivera has.


However, all baseball stats are team dependent to some degree... so to try and discount some statistics more than others based on that is not always possible.

True... but obviously a stat like ERA and WHIP are less team dependent than Saves which are a meaningless stat other than for looking pretty. Kind of like what batting average has become these days.

I can repect that. Only do not tell me that Rivera is soooooo much better than Hoffman, like they are not even close. There is nothing to back it up.

I never said it wasnt even close. You said Hoffman was a superior closer and I disagreed and showed a stat to back it up. Thats it.

[BatsareBugs]

Re: Trevor Hoffman

Your absolutely right. I didnt mean to start anything.

Anyways its a definite congrats to Hoffman as it shows how hard it is to be a closer for a long time. People saw guys like Lidge and Gagne and were so quick to annoint them to Rivera and Hoffman status...and we all have seen how quickly things have changed for them.

It's alright, I had a feeling something like that might've happened when I created this thread.

Anyways, you mentioned Gagne and Lidge, it's amazing how many closers the past couple of years we've seen have shown flashes of brilliance, but after a couple of seasons one can't pull it together or they simply cannot stay healthy enough to put together the careers like Hoffman and Rivera, the consistency that those two closers have shown throughout their respective careers.

That alone makes me respect closers like Hoffman and Rivera. While it's easy for the average closer nowadays to get to 100 saves in two seasons, getting up to 400 (and hopefully 500 for both of these closers since they're one pace to do so) has not been as easy and has been done by so few people on a stat that a lot of sports writers and experts tend to view as overrated (which in some aspects I believe it can be, but in the bigger picture I don't think it is).

Closers as good as Hoffman and Rivera are hard to come by, and once they leave, their respective teams will be fortunate to have closers perform as well as both of those two have. I sure witnessed this when the Padres lost Hoffman to injury in 2003, having to deal with the revolving door of closers galore like several teams have and it's not fun. (The Yankees fared better when Rivera missed part of 2002 with three pitchers filling in to combine for 22 saves, all with ERAs between 3 and 3.5).

[Rainey]

Re: Trevor Hoffman

Yeah, it is funny when a guy like Bob Wickman is treated like the Messiah.

[BatsareBugs]

Re: Trevor Hoffman

By the way, for whoever mentioned WHIP... here's a little interesting fact between Hoffman and Rivera...

Hoffman
Hits: 666
Walks: 246

Rivera
Hits: 686
Walks: 226

Baserunners Allowed: 906 for both. Rivera has pitched 4.1 more innings than Hoffman, giving him 0.01 advantage on WHIP.

But how's that for coincidence?

[rsox]

Re: Trevor Hoffman

Yeah, it is funny when a guy like Bob Wickman is treated like the Messiah.

Well, after watching the disaster that was Fausto Carmona trying to save games Indians fans would probably welcome a second coming of Bob Wickman.

[CMH]

Re: Trevor Hoffman

By the way, for whoever mentioned WHIP... here's a little interesting fact between Hoffman and Rivera...

Hoffman
Hits: 666
Walks: 246

Rivera
Hits: 686
Walks: 226

Baserunners Allowed: 906 for both. Rivera has pitched 4.1 more innings than Hoffman, giving him 0.01 advantage on WHIP.

But how's that for coincidence?

When it comes down to talking about the greatest closers of this era you have to mention Hoffman and Rivera. Those two have been absolutely phenomenal in a role that has become oversaturated and overrated. Those two, however, deserve most of the praise they receive.

To turn this back on the person this thread is meant for, it's an absolute shame that Hoffman is merely an afterthought to the media when it comes to discussing great relievers of this time. Everyone talks about Rivera and we all know why. He's been in several postseason games and has won four championships. Very difficult to take that away from him. Unfortunately, for Hoffman that has not been the case.

But, in my opinion that's an even bigger testament to his talent. He has performed above and beyond as a closer for a team that has not always been one of the best teams in baseball. To close out games at his rate is truly phenomenal.

I'll be one of the first to quickly cross out saves as a major stat attributed to talent. But, there is a lot to be said of longetivity and consistency. There are only two closers of this era that have maintained that brilliance.

I hope that Hoffman gets his due. But, I realize that he never really will in a media concentrated only on champions and late-inning heroics due to overdramatization.

[BatsareBugs]

Re: Trevor Hoffman

Hoffman just saved number 472 against the Reds in a must-win for the Padres. Just six more to tie.

[rsox]

Re: Trevor Hoffman

Hopefully things will go well and Hoffman will get it by seasons end.


Did anyone see the David Wells "highlight" reel from todays game on Baseball tonight earlier, classic stuff. Boomer will definitly be missed in Boston.

[BatsareBugs]

Re: Trevor Hoffman

Just as long as Wells stays away from glass he'll be fine here in San Diego.

Here's another interesting fact, all of Trevor Hoffman's blown saves in 2004 came at the expense of David Wells, who was in line to earn a win in those games.

[BatsareBugs]

Re: Trevor Hoffman

Save number 473 came last night against the Rockies, just six more to go.