Howard MVP 2006, Rollins MVP 2007, Utley NL MVP 2008

[dkgojackets]

Re: Howard MVP 2006, Rollins MVP 2007, Utley NL MVP 2008

CBP opened the same year as Petco Park, 2004. That I know.

Rollins's home run numbers didn't jump up until 2006, he's consistently stolen bases and hit for extra-bases, but to say the CBP did not have a factor on him offensively is foolish.

In 2003 Rollins went .278/.333/.422 at home. In 2004 he went .308/.373/.503.

I consider those home numbers to be jumping.

[P2K]

Re: Howard MVP 2006, Rollins MVP 2007, Utley NL MVP 2008

The only reason the CBP is getting major play is because of Howard and also the Phillies being a somewhat good team. Everyone forgets that The Vet was nicknamed The Launching Pad.

[TheLetterZ]

Re: Howard MVP 2006, Rollins MVP 2007, Utley NL MVP 2008

The only reason the CBP is getting major play is because of Howard and also the Phillies being a somewhat good team. Everyone forgets that The Vet was nicknamed The Launching Pad.

Uh, I thought Fulton County Stadium was The Lainching Pad.

[P2K]

Re: Howard MVP 2006, Rollins MVP 2007, Utley NL MVP 2008

Uh, I thought Fulton County Stadium was The Lainching Pad.

Well, yeah lol

But the Vet was kind to homers as well.

[jdros13]

Re: Howard MVP 2006, Rollins MVP 2007, Utley NL MVP 2008

Well, yeah lol

But the Vet was kind to homers as well.

It was very good for homers during July and August when it was hot out, but nothing like CBP.

I only read about 5 pages of this thread, but I'm assuming we have all come to the conclusion that Rollins is not the greatest offensive SS in the NL and that his offensive numbers were eclipsed by other players as well.

The MVP has never been about that though...it has always been a subjective award, and Rollins got credit for making himself the face of the franchise during the offseason, putting the bullseye on his back, and then having his career year. Frankly, the award was Chase Utley's till he got hurt, and Utley's offensive numbers were still IMO more impressive than Rollins', despite missing all that time. If the Phillies don't win the division I'm guessing someone else wins the award, but it doesn't change the fact that Rollins had a great season.

Baseball is a game of statistics, but we might just be getting a little too stat driven over the last 10 years for our own good. There is still room for intangibles, leadership, and a good story....and Rollins isn't the first to win the MVP running on that platform either. That is what captures peoples' imagination, not their VORP.

Oh, back to the original point of the thread, yes I do think Utley has as good a shot as anyone to win the MVP going into this season....he was likely the runaway winner last year if he stayed healthy.

[JBH3]

Re: Howard MVP 2006, Rollins MVP 2007, Utley NL MVP 2008

It was very good for homers during July and August when it was hot out, but nothing like CBP.

I only read about 5 pages of this thread, but I'm assuming we have all come to the conclusion that Rollins is not the greatest offensive SS in the NL and that his offensive numbers were eclipsed by other players as well.

The MVP has never been about that though...it has always been a subjective award, and Rollins got credit for making himself the face of the franchise during the offseason, putting the bullseye on his back, and then having his career year. Frankly, the award was Chase Utley's till he got hurt, and Utley's offensive numbers were still IMO more impressive than Rollins', despite missing all that time. If the Phillies don't win the division I'm guessing someone else wins the award, but it doesn't change the fact that Rollins had a great season.

Baseball is a game of statistics, but we might just be getting a little too stat driven over the last 10 years for our own good. There is still room for intangibles, leadership, and a good story....and Rollins isn't the first to win the MVP running on that platform either. That is what captures peoples' imagination, not their VORP.

Oh, back to the original point of the thread, yes I do think Utley has as good a shot as anyone to win the MVP going into this season....he was likely the runaway winner last year if he stayed healthy.

Great post. Very good points.

[dkgojackets]

Re: Howard MVP 2006, Rollins MVP 2007, Utley NL MVP 2008

It was very good for homers during July and August when it was hot out, but nothing like CBP.

I only read about 5 pages of this thread, but I'm assuming we have all come to the conclusion that Rollins is not the greatest offensive SS in the NL and that his offensive numbers were eclipsed by other players as well.

The MVP has never been about that though...it has always been a subjective award, and Rollins got credit for making himself the face of the franchise during the offseason, putting the bullseye on his back, and then having his career year. Frankly, the award was Chase Utley's till he got hurt, and Utley's offensive numbers were still IMO more impressive than Rollins', despite missing all that time. If the Phillies don't win the division I'm guessing someone else wins the award, but it doesn't change the fact that Rollins had a great season.

Baseball is a game of statistics, but we might just be getting a little too stat driven over the last 10 years for our own good. There is still room for intangibles, leadership, and a good story....and Rollins isn't the first to win the MVP running on that platform either. That is what captures peoples' imagination, not their VORP.

Oh, back to the original point of the thread, yes I do think Utley has as good a shot as anyone to win the MVP going into this season....he was likely the runaway winner last year if he stayed healthy.

I see where you're going here. While "making yourself the face of the franchise" and "putting the bullseye on your back" and "a good story" aren't listed on the letter to MVP voters as considerations, you're right that some do take it into account and voting is incredibly subjective (a lot is influenced by who mainstream media pushes). I think you realize that Rollins numbers did not make him the most valuable baseball player last year, and that's all anyone outside of Philly can expect.

I still don't get the whole "if they didn't win the division, someone else would have gotten it" argument. Howard didn't win the division but got the award over someone with better numbers who did go to the playoffs. At least that was overshadowed by a much bigger mistake in the AL that year.

[superjames1992]

Re: Howard MVP 2006, Rollins MVP 2007, Utley NL MVP 2008

3 years of Phillies MVPs, LOL!

[P2K]

Re: Howard MVP 2006, Rollins MVP 2007, Utley NL MVP 2008

3 years of Phillies MVPs, LOL!

Don't you have something to do...like placing the bloody glove on Rich Rod or whatever?

[jdros13]

Re: Howard MVP 2006, Rollins MVP 2007, Utley NL MVP 2008

I still don't get the whole "if they didn't win the division, someone else would have gotten it" argument. Howard didn't win the division but got the award over someone with better numbers who did go to the playoffs. At least that was overshadowed by a much bigger mistake in the AL that year.

I didn't spell it out, but if the Mets didn't go in the tank, I personally think that D. Wright would have won the award. Holliday had great numbers as well, and would have been deserving had he won as well. The Phillies huge comeback definitely played a role in Rollins getting elected IMO.

Since you bring up the prior year as well (it seems you really don't like the MVP results lately) I think that Pujols had a great year in '06, and by pure stats maybe a better year than Howard - certainly he was also deserving of the award (and probably will be for many years to come). He also missed a couple of weeks though, played in a god-awful division, and his team had fewer wins than the Phillies during that regular season. Add to that Howard's 58 hrs (to Pujols 49) and 149 RBIs (to Pujols 137), the fact that neither OPS was at a all-time greatest season in the history of the game level (Pujols 1.1016 is tied for the 89th best ever, Howard's 1.0839 is 112th best LINK) and whether you agree with the argument or not you certainly must at least acknowledge the argument for Howard being the NL MVP in 2006.

I don't intend to get in a statistical pissing match, and I certainly can appreciate your opinions...they are shared by many respected baseball analysts. This award has never been based on fact though...it is completely subjective for better or worse and stats are simply a tool that the writers (voters) can use to support their beliefs. Until they start assigning point values to all the statistical categories and giving the award to the person with the most points it will remain that way.

Besides, someone needed to stand up for my Phightin' Phils!

[rsnomar05]

Re: Howard MVP 2006, Rollins MVP 2007, Utley NL MVP 2008

I didn't spell it out, but if the Mets didn't go in the tank, I personally think that D. Wright would have won the award. Holliday had great numbers as well, and would have been deserving had he won as well. The Phillies huge comeback definitely played a role in Rollins getting elected IMO.

Since you bring up the prior year as well (it seems you really don't like the MVP results lately) I think that Pujols had a great year in '06, and by pure stats maybe a better year than Howard - certainly he was also deserving of the award (and probably will be for many years to come). He also missed a couple of weeks though, played in a god-awful division, and his team had fewer wins than the Phillies during that regular season. Add to that Howard's 58 hrs (to Pujols 49) and 149 RBIs (to Pujols 137), the fact that neither OPS was at a all-time greatest season in the history of the game level (Pujols 1.1016 is tied for the 89th best ever, Howard's 1.0839 is 112th best LINK) and whether you agree with the argument or not you certainly must at least acknowledge the argument for Howard being the NL MVP in 2006.

I don't intend to get in a statistical pissing match, and I certainly can appreciate your opinions...they are shared by many respected baseball analysts. This award has never been based on fact though...it is completely subjective for better or worse and stats are simply a tool that the writers (voters) can use to support their beliefs. Until they start assigning point values to all the statistical categories and giving the award to the person with the most points it will remain that way.

Besides, someone needed to stand up for my Phightin' Phils!

Their OPS was comparable, but it's the RBI argument that I hate. 12 more RBI's? Not only are they the most irrelevant stat in baseball and dependent on teammates, but a 12 RBI difference is nothing. I do agree that the homers (an important stat) played a huge part in the voting, as well they should have.

[ComfortablyLomb]

Re: Howard MVP 2006, Rollins MVP 2007, Utley NL MVP 2008

OK, so you want to use team performance this year to support Rollins because his team made the playoffs. Whatever, thats your right to make it a team award. I still see it as an individual award. You want to include fielding, great, you should.

SO HOW COME HOWARD DESERVED IT OVER PUJOLS IN 2006 WHEN PUJOLS MADE THE PLAYOFFS, HOWARD DID NOT, AND PUJOLS HAS THE BEST GLOVE AT HIS POSITION?

I believe this is an appropriate spot for the phrase "You can't have your cake and eat it too."

Please don't ever use Gold Glove logic for anything ever again. They're a broken award. There's no run-off for voting and we know how that turns out. A guy could theoretically win with two votes.

[Sandman42]

Re: Howard MVP 2006, Rollins MVP 2007, Utley NL MVP 2008

Please don't ever use Gold Glove logic for anything ever again. They're a broken award. There's no run-off for voting and we know how that turns out. A guy could theoretically win with two votes.

Where did he mention anything about Gold Gloves? By most defensive metrics Pujols is the best defensive 1B in baseball.

[dkgojackets]

Re: Howard MVP 2006, Rollins MVP 2007, Utley NL MVP 2008

Please don't ever use Gold Glove logic for anything ever again. They're a broken award. There's no run-off for voting and we know how that turns out. A guy could theoretically win with two votes.

I sure hope to god I've never referenced Gold Gloves in an argument. Those things are a joke and popularity contest.

Are you implying Pujols isn't one of the best fielding first-basemen? Every single metric I've looked at has him at the top. Are you implying Ryan Howard is a better fielder than Pujols? Why would you think that?

[P2K]

Re: Howard MVP 2006, Rollins MVP 2007, Utley NL MVP 2008

Are you implying Ryan Howard is a better fielder than Pujols? Why would you think that?

Wow...nice way to force words in his mouth.