Raul Ibanez rips one of our OS members.

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  • Misfit
    All Star
    • Mar 2003
    • 5766

    #61
    Re: Raul Ibanez rips one of our OS members.

    Originally posted by YankeePride
    He wrote that people will have speculation and for good reason. He only alluded to it because it's an obvious question that people are going to have considering the environment.

    You're really piling on here for no reason. JRod didn't charge Ibanez with a crime. He only wrote what some people were thinking.
    He wrote what the journalists probably aren't permitted to write. I don't find fault with Ibanez defending his honor, good for him, however this kind of stuff comes with the territory. He and the rest of his colleagues created this environment. I fault the non-abusers of PED's as much as the ones who were on them because at no point did they stand up for themselves or go to the union. This is how things are going to be and for the media to single out some blogger is ridiculous. They may as well troll messageboards and single out any users that question athletes. We've had entire threads devoted to such topics, maybe the whole lot of us can get on ESPN?!

    Comment

    • Coug00
      LOB
      • Jul 2002
      • 3476

      #62
      Re: Raul Ibanez rips one of our OS members.

      Originally posted by SPTO
      Eh? I think you may be confusing Mr. Baker with Jeff Blair who himself, is a bit of an egotist but he knows it and doesn't hide it. Actually he's probably the 2nd best guy in the newspaper business that knows baseball (the first would be Stephen Brunt)
      Baker came from Toronto 3 years ago and now is at the Seattle Times. He's the clown that got Johnson fired and later pissed off the entire Jays organization monikering them the "White Jays" cause they were too white.

      He's also the dip**** who stirred up all the Ichiro vs Mariner clubhouse stuff in Seattle last year.
      Member of The OS Baseball Rocket Scientists Association

      Comment

      • Misfit
        All Star
        • Mar 2003
        • 5766

        #63
        Re: Raul Ibanez rips one of our OS members.

        Originally posted by Coug00
        I've never seen a more arrogant, ego-stroking, self-promoting, hypocritical beat writer that Geoff Baker. SPTO, Toronto, TAKE HIM BACK!

        I did have to laugh when Baker said his good friend Rosenthal "eviscerated" JRod on OTL. I must have watched a different program with JRod and Rosenthal than him.
        That "piece" he wrote was one of the more pompous things I have ever read from a professional. His whole argument was that bloggers are not real journalists, but at the same time he wanted to argue that they should be held to the same standards. So which is it, Mr. Baker? And then there was all of that self-serving junk where he basically highlighted his entire career for us. Upon reflection, I don't know how I made it through the entire article.

        Comment

        • DonkeyJote
          All Star
          • Jul 2003
          • 9187

          #64
          Re: Raul Ibanez rips one of our OS members.

          I don't think the information in that article is complete or conclusive. I personally believe that it has more to do with Ibanez's service time and the fact that he came to the big leagues later than most, rather than age.

          Raul has been pretty healthy in his career, and has benefited from not coming to the majors full time until he was nearly 30 years old. He is currently only in his eighth season as a full time major league player. Baseball isn't like other sports. You cannot rely on athleticism. Hitting is more about a gameplan, your eyes, and hand eye coordination. Let's look at some other veteren power hitters.

          Andruw Jones had his career year in 2005 at the age of 28. He hit .263, with 51 hr and 128 rbi. Although he was called up initially in 1996, his first full year in the league was 1998, making 2005 his 8th year in the league.

          Barry Bonds is widely suspected of being a steroid user. It is said that his use began in 1998 after seing the HR chase of Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa. Pre-steroids though, his best year was likely 1993, where he hit .336, 46 hr, 123 rbi. It was his 8th year in the majors.

          Jermaine Dye came up with the Braves in 1996, but didn't get a crack at being a full time player until 1999 with the Kansas City Royals. In his 8th year of being a full time player, he had a career year, hitting .315, 44 hr, 120 rbi.

          David Ortiz came up slowly for the Twins, but met his real success with the Red Sox. For him, it wasn't his 8th year, but his 7th that produced his career season of .287, 54, 137, though, his 8th year did actually produce is career high in OPS (1.066).

          Ken Griffey's career year came in his 9th year, when he hit 56 hr, and drove in 147.

          Frank Thomas actually waited until his 10th year to have his career year, belting 43 hr, and collecting 143 rbi.

          It happens a lot. Power hitters seem to find their stride in their 7th season or later quite often. It's Ibanez's 8th season. He's seen 7 full years of major league pitchers and is having a great year because of it.




          I'd also like to state how little I believe in ballpark figures. Why is Citizen's Bank so much better of a pitchers park now than what it was? Is it because they changed the stadium? Did the jetstreams magically shift? No. It's because the Phillies' pitching has vastly improved, which means there's going to be less runs and less homeruns a game there. It's not like there's two different teams playing there all of the time to get an accurate read on it. One of the teams is always the same, and if the home team's pitching gets better, statistically, the stadium is going to look like more of a pitcher's park, even though it's exactly the same stadium it was before. Same goes for Safeco. It magically looks like a better hitter's park the one year when pratically everyone on the team had a career year. Following that one season, it goes back down. Those ratings are too dependent on the home team's talent level, and thus are completely useless.

          Comment

          • fugazi
            MVP
            • Apr 2003
            • 3749

            #65
            Re: Raul Ibanez rips one of our OS members.

            Originally posted by EsaQue
            Those ratings are too dependent on the home team's talent level, and thus are completely useless.
            Great post, but i disagree with the last point...

            In a short term, yes they might be useless. But if a long view is taken, and some real trends can be seen, then ballpark stats can be very valid, if not useful.
            Australian Rules Football...just sayin'

            Comment

            • DonkeyJote
              All Star
              • Jul 2003
              • 9187

              #66
              Re: Raul Ibanez rips one of our OS members.

              Originally posted by fugazi
              Great post, but i disagree with the last point...

              In a short term, yes they might be useless. But if a long view is taken, and some real trends can be seen, then ballpark stats can be very valid, if not useful.
              Yeah, but in his blog he was going season by season (even this season, where there have been, what, maybe 30 games at Citizen Bank?). Yeah, if you go over the long term, you can see some trends. But by long term, I mean 5 years or more, so that you can get away from an especially good or bad stretch by a home team.

              Comment

              • CMH
                Making you famous
                • Oct 2002
                • 26203

                #67
                Re: Raul Ibanez rips one of our OS members.

                EsaQue, I get where you're going with your breakdown but age has a greater chance to affect performance than experience.

                By your reasoning, a player could enter the league at 38 and become a bonafide power hitter at the age of 46.

                It's true that Ibanez could be hitting his peak, and we've seen guys hit their peak at a later age - though, not many and the few that have, there has been speculation around them having used performance enhancers. That's the only reason why Ibanez name comes up.

                So, I can agree that Ibanez smartened up a bit, but the production is more than just a bit here. Players don't just have huge spikes in production at the age of 37. It doesn't happen. History shows it doesn't. Obviously, Ibanez is proving history wrong and that's great for him. There is always the one or few anamolies in the equation.

                But, what Ibanez and Phillies fans need to understand is that Ibanez is doing what players aren't supposed to do. When someone breaks the mold, speculation arises. It's a fact of life. It doesnt mean someone wants Ibanez to be a user or truly believes he is. It just means that the question will cross people's minds and Ibanez is playing the fool if he seriously believes that no one should have such a thought.
                "It may well be that we spectators, who are not divinely gifted as athletes, are the only ones able to truly see, articulate and animate the experience of the gift we are denied. And that those who receive and act out the gift of athletic genius must, perforce, be blind and dumb about it -- and not because blindness and dumbness are the price of the gift, but because they are its essence." - David Foster Wallace

                "You'll not find more penny-wise/pound-foolish behavior than in Major League Baseball." - Rob Neyer

                Comment

                • Ewing
                  Banned
                  • Mar 2009
                  • 863

                  #68
                  Re: Raul Ibanez rips one of our OS members.

                  Originally posted by Coug00
                  I've never seen a more arrogant, ego-stroking, self-promoting, hypocritical beat writer that Geoff Baker. SPTO, Toronto, TAKE HIM BACK!

                  I did have to laugh when Baker said his good friend Rosenthal "eviscerated" JRod on OTL. I must have watched a different program with JRod and Rosenthal than him.
                  I have a theory that Dusty Baker and Geoff Baker are somehow related. They've got moron written in their DNA.

                  Comment

                  • DonkeyJote
                    All Star
                    • Jul 2003
                    • 9187

                    #69
                    Re: Raul Ibanez rips one of our OS members.

                    I think that age means less in today's game because of training habits and diets, and offseason programs. What can mean something is time played. I don't think Griffey is breaking down because he's 39, I think it's because he's played in 2500 games.

                    Look at Andruw Jones. He's not falling apart because of age. He's falling apart because he's played in over 1800 games and it's worn him down. You don't get that worn down when you're not in the big leagues. We haven't seen anything like we're seeing from Ibanez, but we haven't seen anyone like him. He was 30 before he made it to the majors. How many guys with any kind of talent don't make it until their 30?

                    The typical male will reach his physical peak between the ages of 28 and 35. Well Ibanez is just past that peak period. But a baseball player reaches his full potential when he gets to a mental peak while his body can still do it. Most players achieve that mental ability during their physical peak, but Ibanez was in the minors for the first two years of that time frame.

                    My point is, most baseball players wind down in their thirties, not because of aging, but because of wear and tear. Aging doesn't really hit the male body until 40 and beyond. But Raul doesn't have the same kind of wear and tear of other players because he started so late.

                    Comment

                    • Coug00
                      LOB
                      • Jul 2002
                      • 3476

                      #70
                      Re: Raul Ibanez rips one of our OS members.

                      Originally posted by Misfit
                      That "piece" he wrote was one of the more pompous things I have ever read from a professional. His whole argument was that bloggers are not real journalists, but at the same time he wanted to argue that they should be held to the same standards. So which is it, Mr. Baker? And then there was all of that self-serving junk where he basically highlighted his entire career for us. Upon reflection, I don't know how I made it through the entire article.
                      Originally posted by Ewing
                      I have a theory that Dusty Baker and Geoff Baker are somehow related. They've got moron written in their DNA.
                      I thought this was pretty funny. The Hardball Times jokingly named an award after Baker for essentially nominating himself as the moral beacon and enforcer of higher standard journalism.
                      As I wrote this morning, the Jerod Morris/Raul Ibanez incident has made me realize that yes, taking writers to task for making irresponsible, evidence-free steroid allegations is a worthy endeavor.


                      Then on Friday they call Baker out for his own hypocrisy sighting an article from earlier this year in which he implies the 2003 Mariners team was filled with PED users.
                      Well, this is awkward: — Geoff Baker, February 7, 2009. Tell us, Geoff: would tarring the entire 2003 Mariners roster as ‘roiders have passed the “rigid standards” you used to teach at Concordia?
                      Member of The OS Baseball Rocket Scientists Association

                      Comment

                      • JBH3
                        Marvel's Finest
                        • Jan 2007
                        • 13506

                        #71
                        Re: Raul Ibanez rips one of our OS members.

                        Originally posted by YankeePride
                        He wrote that people will have speculation and for good reason. He only alluded to it because it's an obvious question that people are going to have considering the environment.

                        You're really piling on here for no reason. JRod didn't charge Ibanez with a crime. He only wrote what some people were thinking.
                        IMO, "piling on" is the continuous speculation of PED performance. We can't find better ways to fill our time?

                        At what point do you enjoy what Ibanez is accomplishing?
                        -OR-
                        Do you enjoy it all because you're a jaded baseball fan?
                        Originally posted by Edmund Burke
                        All that is needed for the triumph of evil, is for good men to do nothing.

                        Comment

                        • CMH
                          Making you famous
                          • Oct 2002
                          • 26203

                          #72
                          Re: Raul Ibanez rips one of our OS members.

                          Originally posted by JBH3
                          IMO, "piling on" is the continuous speculation of PED performance. We can't find better ways to fill our time?

                          At what point do you enjoy what Ibanez is accomplishing?
                          -OR-
                          Do you enjoy it all because you're a jaded baseball fan?
                          I'm not a jaded fan. I really don't even care about steroids. I don't believe they increase performance much. I see steroids as big a fallacy in performance enhancement as corked bats.

                          I'm happy for Ibanez. I've always liked him as a player. My only complaint with him is the Phillies giving him more money and years than I thought he deserved, and that's not even a complaint about him. That's a complaint about Phillies management (obviously, and this is a tired discussion, it's working out for them thus far).

                          Anyway, this doesn't affect me because I don't care. I'm just pointing out that there are jaded fans that do. The writer of the article was pointing out that fans are going to consider the possibility. That's not piling on. That's stating the obvious. And he only did it in one article.
                          "It may well be that we spectators, who are not divinely gifted as athletes, are the only ones able to truly see, articulate and animate the experience of the gift we are denied. And that those who receive and act out the gift of athletic genius must, perforce, be blind and dumb about it -- and not because blindness and dumbness are the price of the gift, but because they are its essence." - David Foster Wallace

                          "You'll not find more penny-wise/pound-foolish behavior than in Major League Baseball." - Rob Neyer

                          Comment

                          • daflyboys
                            Banned
                            • May 2003
                            • 18238

                            #73
                            Re: Raul Ibanez rips one of our OS members.

                            Originally posted by YankeePride
                            EsaQue, I get where you're going with your breakdown but age has a greater chance to affect performance than experience.

                            By your reasoning, a player could enter the league at 38 and become a bonafide power hitter at the age of 46.

                            It's true that Ibanez could be hitting his peak, and we've seen guys hit their peak at a later age - though, not many and the few that have, there has been speculation around them having used performance enhancers. That's the only reason why Ibanez name comes up.

                            So, I can agree that Ibanez smartened up a bit, but the production is more than just a bit here. Players don't just have huge spikes in production at the age of 37. It doesn't happen. History shows it doesn't. Obviously, Ibanez is proving history wrong and that's great for him. There is always the one or few anamolies in the equation.

                            But, what Ibanez and Phillies fans need to understand is that Ibanez is doing what players aren't supposed to do. When someone breaks the mold, speculation arises. It's a fact of life. It doesnt mean someone wants Ibanez to be a user or truly believes he is. It just means that the question will cross people's minds and Ibanez is playing the fool if he seriously believes that no one should have such a thought.

                            The 38/46 point is silly. There is of course a window regarding physical prowess. We're not talking chess here. This makes as much sense as saying someone could enter the league at 10 and reach his potential at 18.

                            If Ibanez is voicing significant disdain by writers and others for speculating he's juicing, he's playing no fool. Maybe he's just a traditional hard-nosed player who's doing well and sick of all of the modern day column/blogging/forum bull****. Maybe he's sick of how the bastardization of the game that he clearly lives and breathes has come about. I know I am.

                            Comment

                            • CMH
                              Making you famous
                              • Oct 2002
                              • 26203

                              #74
                              Re: Raul Ibanez rips one of our OS members.

                              So, you think Ibanez should act like an ignorant idiot?

                              Let's be serious. No one is saying Ibanez shouldn't be mad - at least I'm not saying that. But, he's an idiot if he thinks that no one is going to whisper the possibility of juicing.

                              Anyone is an idiot if they think people aren't going to think it.

                              And obviously the 38-45 thing is ridiculous. That's the point.
                              "It may well be that we spectators, who are not divinely gifted as athletes, are the only ones able to truly see, articulate and animate the experience of the gift we are denied. And that those who receive and act out the gift of athletic genius must, perforce, be blind and dumb about it -- and not because blindness and dumbness are the price of the gift, but because they are its essence." - David Foster Wallace

                              "You'll not find more penny-wise/pound-foolish behavior than in Major League Baseball." - Rob Neyer

                              Comment

                              • JBH3
                                Marvel's Finest
                                • Jan 2007
                                • 13506

                                #75
                                Re: Raul Ibanez rips one of our OS members.

                                Jayson Stark wrote a good piece on this whole debacle.

                                http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/column...son&id=4262125

                                In it he shows that Hank Aaron hit 47 HRs in 1971 - A career high for him. Aaron was also 37 yrs old, and just two years prior played in 160 games, had 111 more ABs, but only accumulated 29 HRs.

                                So was he on PEDs in '71?

                                That's why, IMO, ALL of these topics are jokes, and detract from what the player is doing and the enjoyment of the game.

                                ...But I can't stop a man and his blog...

                                Will there ever come a time when all of this stops?
                                Originally posted by Edmund Burke
                                All that is needed for the triumph of evil, is for good men to do nothing.

                                Comment

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