Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

[Sportsforever]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

I agree, at some point someone is getting in who has used PED's, and there is a good chance there is already someone in the HOF who cheated the game. Pudge Rodriguez, more than likely used, and some say Piazza, although I tend to believe Piazza. Where as Ivan Rodriguez didnt really deny, he just said something along the lines, of only God knows.

You can just about guarantee Big Papi is getting in, he is beloved, by even people who hate the Red Sox,lol. I know Ortiz is in a different situation, with his name being leaked to being on that list of 100. I also believe Papi, when he says he may very well have taken something over the counter back in the Dominican, yet still to this day, they have never told Papi what it was that triggered the test.

Plus were starting to getting to the point where there is ayounger group of writers doing the HOF voting, and several of them dont have the same integrity of the game mentality as previous era writers, although some of the old guard, had there issues, with how they voted, based on if they liked the player or not, depeding on how accessible they were with the media,lol.


It will be a sad day, when that 1st definite known user gets in, like a Bonds, but its bound to happen. My main gripe is, how can you keep Pete Rose out of the HOF, yet allow a known cheater get into the HOF. That will be what will yick me off the most. And as Reds, fan, Im fine with Pete not being in, because he did break a rule thats been on the wall of every clubhouse in baseball forever. However if you allow a known cheat, like a Bonds in, then you sure the heck better put Pete Rose in.


On another note, sad to see Cano was using a banned substance. When are these guys going to learn, you got to be extra careful, with anything you take, whether it be over the counter, or doctor prescribe as Cano's was. Surely these guys arent this darn stupid, to 1, not pay any attention to what they are taking, or being prescribe, and 2, actually think they can get away with it, if they are doing it knowingly.

First off, we already know there is at least one PED user in the HOF (see Thomas Boswell). My guess is Rickey Henderson or Cal Ripken. I'm sure Pudge Rodriguez, Piazza, etc, all used as well.

Secondly, how you can lump PED users in with Pete Rose is beyond me. Rose knew from day one that betting on baseball is a lifetime ban...he chose to do so anyway. Technically he isn't banned from the HOF, but the HOF has chosen to keep him out in following with baseball's lifetime ban. That said, the PED issue vs Rose's gambling are two different issues completely, IMO.

I personally have no problem with putting PED users in the HOF (heck, Babe Ruth was a PED user...he took injections of sheep testosterone in 1925) because at least they are trying to win, but someone who gambles on the game can't be tolerated in that they can damage the integrity of competition and that would be a death nail for any sport.

[Madden08PCgmr]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

The voting needs to change, first off.

These guys sending in blank ballots should be outed, ridiculed mercilessly, then lose their votes.

And its really hard to hold the PED users out considering MLB all but promoted their behavior. The suits know the McGwire-Sosa chase was the key to their rebound after cancelling a World Series, and the guys in the trenches knew darn well what was happening. How is it fair that a sports writer clings to some moral high ground, while the powers that be turned a blind eye and couldn't have cared less??

If not for Congress, it would STILL be going on.

[DrJones]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

You can just about guarantee Big Papi is getting in, he is beloved, by even people who hate the Red Sox,lol. I know Ortiz is in a different situation, with his name being leaked to being on that list of 100. I also believe Papi, when he says he may very well have taken something over the counter back in the Dominican, yet still to this day, they have never told Papi what it was that triggered the test.

On another note, sad to see Cano was using a banned substance. When are these guys going to learn, you got to be extra careful, with anything you take, whether it be over the counter, or doctor prescribe as Cano's was. Surely these guys arent this darn stupid, to 1, not pay any attention to what they are taking, or being prescribe, and 2, actually think they can get away with it, if they are doing it knowingly.

LOL. MLB players can get ANY kind of legal medication/supplements they want through their teams. I don't believe for a split-second any player who claims that he accidentally took something over the counter that triggered a positive.

[WaitTilNextYear]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

First off, we already know there is at least one PED user in the HOF (see Thomas Boswell). My guess is Rickey Henderson or Cal Ripken. I'm sure Pudge Rodriguez, Piazza, etc, all used as well.

Secondly, how you can lump PED users in with Pete Rose is beyond me. Rose knew from day one that betting on baseball is a lifetime ban...he chose to do so anyway. Technically he isn't banned from the HOF, but the HOF has chosen to keep him out in following with baseball's lifetime ban. That said, the PED issue vs Rose's gambling are two different issues completely, IMO.

I personally have no problem with putting PED users in the HOF (heck, Babe Ruth was a PED user...he took injections of sheep testosterone in 1925) because at least they are trying to win, but someone who gambles on the game can't be tolerated in that they can damage the integrity of competition and that would be a death nail for any sport.

I'm not sure of the PED user you're referring to, but if it is Cal Ripken Jr. lots of heads are gonna explode. He's sort of a poster boy for gritty, doing-it-the-right-way players that people reference when lamenting the current state of the game. That would be rich.

I also agree that betting on your sport/team is in a different category that using your own body as a science lab. I think betting is a worse offense than juicing.

[CaseIH]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

First off, we already know there is at least one PED user in the HOF (see Thomas Boswell). My guess is Rickey Henderson or Cal Ripken. I'm sure Pudge Rodriguez, Piazza, etc, all used as well.

Secondly, how you can lump PED users in with Pete Rose is beyond me. Rose knew from day one that betting on baseball is a lifetime ban...he chose to do so anyway. Technically he isn't banned from the HOF, but the HOF has chosen to keep him out in following with baseball's lifetime ban. That said, the PED issue vs Rose's gambling are two different issues completely, IMO.

I personally have no problem with putting PED users in the HOF (heck, Babe Ruth was a PED user...he took injections of sheep testosterone in 1925) because at least they are trying to win, but someone who gambles on the game can't be tolerated in that they can damage the integrity of competition and that would be a death nail for any sport.

Well 1st off, I said Im fine with Pete being left out of the HOF, it dont really bother me one bit he isnt in, because he knew better, yet did it anyway. To say atleast the PED users were trying to win, and suggesting Rose wa throwing games, is ridiculous. For one PED users, arent thinking about winning as in team, when they do it, or not soley anyway. They are thinking about financial gains, and probably records as well. There has no proof whatsoever that Rose threw games, when he bet on the Reds, he bet on them to win, and when he didnt think the chances were good, he didnt bet on them. Pete Rose is a lot of things, but no one has ever played the game any harder, and wanted to win more than he did.
Again Im fine with Pete not being in, and technically your right its the HOF, not MLB who is keeping Pete out. However, if the commissioner wanted too, he could persuade Cooperstown into changing their policy on that.

My opinion has somewhat changed thru the yr on the HOF and PED's, I use to say keep them all out and anyone who is in the HOF, who is found to have used, kick them out of the HOF.
Since then, I have softened my stance to a degree, but if your going to use integrity in voting, all while allowing PED users in, yet keep Rose out, or even shoeless Joe Jackson, for that matter, as while Joe did take the money, there was no evidence that suggest he threw games, his stats line is pretty good evidence, and if I remember correctly he had a heck of a World Series, although he did commit that error, that is questionable,lol.

I have a hard time believing Cal Ripken Jr used PED's, I know I have heard that before as well, but I think its much about nothing. The whole thing about Piazza, mainly do to a reporter, talking about zits all over his back is kind of weak. I had a friend whos back was full of zits, where you coudl play connect the dots, and I guarantee he didnt use roids, he didnt even play sports, nor is he a big guy,lol.

I know its a difficult task because without solid proof, like there is with Bonds, or the likes of Manny and Arod. Its not really fair to other players, who played in that era who did do it the right way, but do to their muscle build, they are considered suspects.
Thats funny about the whole sheep blood, or whatever about the Babe, and I think I remember hearing about that before too. I doubt it help the Babe, big difference between what we know now and what they knew back then. Thats like players back in the day taking what basically was like speed, forget what it was called, it was over the counter uppers, to help them. That kind of stuff, wasnt helping guys hit the ball farther.

With all that said, the PED era is part of baseball, but its hard for me to say just put them in. Its not like Bonds Hr's, or even Pete Rose hit total isnt in the HOF already, its all documented, they just arent given a bust and a ceremony of induction. So for these who say well its part of history, and you cant tell the history of baseball without the PED era, is laughable, as its all documented in the HOF, just as a guy like Homer Bailey who has thrown 2 no hitters is in the HOF, even though he will never be. But players who disgrace the game, whether its in using PED, or betting on baseball like Pete did, really dont deserve a inductions ceremony, or a bust. But if your going to allow one disgraceful action in, then you need to allow both, simple as that.

[CaseIH]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

LOL. MLB players can get ANY kind of legal medication/supplements they want through their teams. I don't believe for a split-second any player who claims that he accidentally took something over the counter that triggered a positive.

Yeah you got a point there, I didnt think of that, but thats very true. I had forgot all about that, thats what happend is old age,lol.

[Armor and Sword]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Thought we'd fire this back up

Tony Oliva
Dick Allen
Mike Mussina
Kevin Brown

Would you vote for any of them?


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Mussina and Brown were dominant for long stretches. Yes I would vote for them.


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[rdnk]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

If you think he's not a HOF'r for what he did on the field, that's your opinion and you're entitled to it...I won't argue that point. The second part, however, I have a problem with. What the heck does "personality" have to do with a man's HOF credentials? I want to avoid TOS violations here, so I'll stop here...but I have a problem with everything after the word "stats" in your statement.

My bad, it was a joke that did not land. Historically, I've seen personality and off the field issues hold players back from making the hall of fame. My comment was a jab at that. I personally believe the HOF should be strictly performance based.

For the rest of the players:

Matt Williams- No
Will Clark- No
Luis Tiant- Yes
Vida Blue- No
Sal Bando- Yes
Ron Guidry- No
Chuck Finley- No
Darrell Evans- Yes
Frank Tanana- No
David Cone- No
Brian Downing- No
Jimmy Wynn- No
Robinson Cano- Yes

Many of these have been brought up before, but how about these active players:

Chase Utley
Ian Kinsler
Dustin Pedrioa
Joey Votto
Evan Longoria
Buster Posey
Ryan Braun
Zack Greinke

[WaitTilNextYear]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Many of these have been brought up before, but how about these active players:

Chase Utley - Yes
Ian Kinsler - No
Dustin Pedroia - No (at present, depends on how much he has left)
Joey Votto - No
Evan Longoria - No (I put him in the same camp as Pedroia)
Buster Posey - Yes (assuming another 3+ years of what he's been doing)
Ryan Braun - No (even if you don't factor in off the field)
Zack Greinke - Probably (but I'd like to see him get to 200 wins and do something in the playoffs to seal it)

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[Themayorofawsometown]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Many of these have been brought up before, but how about these active players:

Chase Utley : yes
Ian Kinsler : no
Dustin Pedrioa : yes
Joey Votto: yes if he continues his play for 2 years
Evan Longoria : no
Buster Posey : yes if he plays well for 3 more years
Ryan Braun: no chance
Zack Greinke: no

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[DamnYanks2]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Chase Utley- Yes. I'm somewhat borderline on him. But I believe his peak was just good enough.

Zack Greinke - Yes. He could do more. But he's definitely on his way.

Dustin Pedroia- borderline. More work to be done. MVP certainly bolsters his case.

Ian Kinsler- borderline. Same as Pedroia. Better War then Pedroia interestingly enough.

Votto- Yes... Unless he just falls off a cliff then he's absolutely in. His lifetime OBP is pretty legendary. One of the most patient hitters I've ever seen.

Ryan Braun- hell no

Evan Longoria- No. He's not completely out of it. But I highly doubt it. He's trending down.

Buster Posey- not yet. But he's definitely on his way.






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[WaitTilNextYear]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Interesting that you guys are all in on Votto. I'm not sold on him.

Currently he's 34 going on 35. He's working on his 11th full season (though 2012 and 2014 were injury plagued). Hasn't really done anything postseason-wise; the Reds have only had a winning record 3 times during his career and never won a playoff series in that time (not really his fault). Votto was NL MVP in 2010 (shockingly, he won the GG the next year...). He has a career triple slash line of .313/.428/.538 (great, but I discount that a bit for GABP being an extreme band box). 263 HR 854 RBI as a first baseman. 157 career wRC+ (again, pretty great). 53.9 career WAR. Not toolsy or known as a good defender.

I'm struggling with the low HR totals/counting stats (and even that being aided by GABP), the low-ish career WAR, and the so-so defense and intangibles. Certainly his OBP is that of an all-timer (borderline top 10 in MLB history).

[Sportsforever]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Interesting that you guys are all in on Votto. I'm not sold on him.

Currently he's 34 going on 35. He's working on his 11th full season (though 2012 and 2014 were injury plagued). Hasn't really done anything postseason-wise; the Reds have only had a winning record 3 times during his career and never won a playoff series in that time (not really his fault). Votto was NL MVP in 2010 (shockingly, he won the GG the next year...). He has a career triple slash line of .313/.428/.538 (great, but I discount that a bit for GABP being an extreme band box). 263 HR 854 RBI as a first baseman. 157 career wRC+ (again, pretty great). 53.9 career WAR. Not toolsy or known as a good defender.

I'm struggling with the low HR totals/counting stats (and even that being aided by GABP), the low-ish career WAR, and the so-so defense and intangibles. Certainly his OBP is that of an all-timer (borderline top 10 in MLB history).

Admit it...you're just mad that he dissed Canada. He was in for you until that happened

[WaitTilNextYear]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Admit it...you're just mad that he dissed Canada. He was in for you until that happened

Damn. Found me out as a softie for Canada despite being an American. HOW DARE HE speak like that about Canadian baseball!!

Actually my only direct, in-person experience with Canada was being treated harshly by the border patrol when a friend and I decided to cross the border just for the heck of it about a decade ago. Bastards spilled my poker chips all over the trunk of my car.


Back on topic though...I can see Votto getting in but I don't think he's there yet. Will be a tough sell for a 1B in this era with < 300 HR.

[DamnYanks2]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Damn. Found me out as a softie for Canada despite being an American. HOW DARE HE speak like that about Canadian baseball!!

Actually my only direct, in-person experience with Canada was being treated harshly by the border patrol when a friend and I decided to cross the border just for the heck of it about a decade ago. Bastards spilled my poker chips all over the trunk of my car.


Back on topic though...I can see Votto getting in but I don't think he's there yet. Will be a tough sell for a 1B in this era with < 300 HR.

No I agree with you. He's not in yet. None of those players on that list are yet. They all have work to do.

I just feel like Joey will age well. He's a natural hitter. He's in borderline territory right now. He ages well he's in. That's why I said "unless he falls off a cliff" If he pulls a Juan Gonzalez from here on out. Then I agree with you. But I don't feel like that will be the case.

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