Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

[WaitTilNextYear]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Ya BRO lol. I'm sure about that. Read through the thread again. There's a lot more on Magglio than just those posts. On top of that, some of the VERY POSTS you put there are implicating him as a borderline hall of famer. On top of the one that says "nowhere close" was mine LMAO.

Anyway, let's just drop it. Neither guy deserves to get in.

Again, you sure, bro?

To me a "borderline" HoF player is not someone that no one thinks deserves to get in. A borderline guy will at least get some support to be enshrined. I think if you didn't look so hard at the technicalities of the words used, you'd see that Mags is basically a "no" not a "maybe". I mean a lot of players are "in the discussion" which is what we're doing now, discussing. Not all of those guys are on the fence or borderline.

Now I only went back to page 30 or so; if I missed anything about Mags, I missed it and you may have a point. But assuming the most recent posts are most relevant, I think it's fair to say that no one even made a concrete case for Magglio which hardly qualifies as borderline. LMAO

[1stpitchhacker]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Again, you sure, bro?

To me a "borderline" HoF player is not someone that no one thinks deserves to get in. A borderline guy will at least get some support to be enshrined. I think if you didn't look so hard at the technicalities of the words used, you'd see that Mags is basically a "no" not a "maybe". I mean a lot of players are "in the discussion" which is what we're doing now, discussing. Not all of those guys are on the fence or borderline.

Now I only went back to page 30 or so; if I missed anything about Mags, I missed it and you may have a point. But assuming the most recent posts are most relevant, I think it's fair to say that no one even made a concrete case for Magglio which hardly qualifies as borderline. LMAO

Phrases like "that's a tough one", "I could be swayed", and "definitely in the argument" sound just a wee bit like "maybe" to me. Whereas "he has no chance", "definite no", "the hall of ALMOST very good" are being used to describe Abreu's chances. See the difference? I just stated that when you look at their actual numbers Abreu makes the stronger case.

Let's just agree to disagree and call it a day. I don't want to get into a whole thing with you.

Tim Hudson's a good one. But I'm leaning more towards no than yeah.

[RoundingThird]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Phrases like "that's a tough one", "I could be swayed", and "definitely in the argument" sound just a wee bit like "maybe" to me. Whereas "he has no chance", "definite no", "the hall of ALMOST very good" are being used to describe Abreu's chances. See the difference? I just stated that when you look at their actual numbers Abreu makes the stronger case.

Let's just agree to disagree and call it a day. I don't want to get into a whole thing with you.

Tim Hudson's a good one. But I'm leaning more towards no than yeah.

I think he might eventually, but not for a while. He needs a couple more good years, and that's not out of the question, but he is aging. A WS ring would help too.

[jth1331]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

I seriously want to know how people can say Magglio Ordonez is a borderline HOFer.
He ended up averaging a WAR of 2.56 a season for his 15 years for crying out loud.
He had one great season in Detroit, a bunch of okay years mixed with some solid years in Chicago.

[AC]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

I seriously want to know how people can say Magglio Ordonez is a borderline HOFer.
He ended up averaging a WAR of 2.56 a season for his 15 years for crying out loud.
He had one great season in Detroit, a bunch of okay years mixed with some solid years in Chicago.

He put up 3.31 fWAR/162, for whatever that's worth. Denoting fWAR or bWAR would be useful.

And this is why just using one stat isn't alright. Defensive metrics are unreliable and Magglio's a minus god knows what, is affects his WAR, whichever version you prefer. He has a career 126 wRC+ and .375 wOBA. That's very good, but not quite good enough. He had a peak of 8 fWAR, which is probably a HOF worthy peak.

I would also argue that he's had 4 very good years.

[Chip Douglass]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

I seriously want to know how people can say Magglio Ordonez is a borderline HOFer.
He ended up averaging a WAR of 2.56 a season for his 15 years for crying out loud.
He had one great season in Detroit, a bunch of okay years mixed with some solid years in Chicago.

Sub-40 WAR when most borderline candidates are around 60: not a HOFer.

[AC]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Sub-40 WAR when most borderline candidates are around 60: not a HOFer.

I would say a good candidate would be around 60, not a borderline one.

I guess this is what JAWS is for.

[DamnYanks2]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

AC, that's a sick avatar man.

[DrJones]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

David Ortiz. Slight whiff of PED allegations, but never really followed up on. Edgar Martinez blows him out of the water if you swear by WAR, but Edgar's stalled at 35% of the vote, while I feel Big Papi, as the face of Boston's two World Series and one of the only two clutch hitters in MLB history*, is going to get in rather easily (within the first 5 ballots he's eligible).

Thoughts? Does Ortiz make it? Should he? If you think both Papi and Edgar deserve to be in Cooperstown, who do you consider to be the better candidate?

*

[55]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

David Ortiz. Slight whiff of PED allegations, but never really followed up on. Edgar Martinez blows him out of the water if you swear by WAR, but Edgar's stalled at 35% of the vote, while I feel Big Papi, as the face of Boston's two World Series and one of the only two clutch hitters in MLB history*, is going to get in rather easily (within the first 5 ballots he's eligible).

Thoughts? Does Ortiz make it? Should he? If you think both Papi and Edgar deserve to be in Cooperstown, who do you consider to be the better candidate?

*

As of right now, of course Martinez is a better candidate. Ortiz is still hitting at an extremely high level right now though (.326/.406/.580 so far this year) so who knows what he'll end up with if he plays 3-4 more years. I know that Martinez has the upper hand (by a lot) in WAR but for a guy who has the same career OPS over barely any more PA I don't understand why. On the other hand, Ortiz has him beat in all of the major counting stats and will have him crushed by the time he's done. You know how the voters love those counting stats, too.

I'm not too keen on strictly DH guys getting in, but if they end up with a .930+ OPS (which both of them have) over 8k plate appearances then I don't see why not.

[AC]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Ortiz wRC+ - 139
Martinez wRC+ - 147

Ortiz wOBA - .393
Martinez wOBA - .405

Ortiz fWAR/162 - 3.4
Martinez fWAR/162 - 5.2

It's not really close for me. I guess you could be swayed by Ortiz's superior ISO, or better discipline, but E-Mart >> Big Papi for me, so if Martinez doesn't make it, Ortiz shouldn't really warrant consideration.

I know that Martinez has the upper hand (by a lot) in WAR but for a guy who has the same career OPS over barely any more PA I don't understand why.

Ortiz's BsR/Fld runs are -55.8 / -11.2. That's roughly 6-7 wins. Martinez's BsR/Fld runs are -20.9 / 16.0. That's a marginal difference. That's one reason they're so different. The rest can be accounted for through Martinez's superior offense (521.8 batting runs) compared to Ortiz's (382.9 batting runs).

I don't like OPS as a stat, honestly. It's a decent stat for a quick evaluation but wOBA is much more useful.

[DrJones]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

This was disappointing to see today:

Jeremy (NJ)

Did you ever write an article about why you do not think pete rose should be allowed in the HOF (i think you said that)? I'd love to read your take on it.

Klaw (2:20 PM)

I have not, and although I'm fine with him being out - he broke the most important rule in the book, the one that most protects the integrity of the game - there is a good argument that the Hall is incomplete without some discussion of his achievements, just as it is incomplete without Bonds or Clemens.

Matt (FL)

How about putting Rose in the Hall but banning him from MLB? The Hall is a museum. You can't ignore history because you don't like it.

Klaw (2:46 PM)

That in essence is the counterargument to my stance on Rose - and it's a good one. I don't have a good rejoinder to that.

Even Keith Law is unaware that history is not being ignored in Cooperstown. When I visited the National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum in March 2008, I saw (and took pics of) displays on Rose, Bonds, McGwire, Shoeless Joe, Eddie Gaedel, you name it. Rose and others don't have a plaque on the wall and don't get an induction ceremony. That's it. Nobody's been forgotten.

[WaitTilNextYear]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Even Keith Law is unaware that history is not being ignored in Cooperstown. When I visited the National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum in March 2008, I saw (and took pics of) displays on Rose, Bonds, McGwire, Shoeless Joe, Eddie Gaedel, you name it. Rose and others don't have a plaque on the wall and don't get an induction ceremony. That's it. Nobody's been forgotten.

Eddie Gaedel HoF or no? His 1.000 OBP looks mighty nice..

[AC]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Eddie Gaedel HoF or no? His 1.000 OBP looks mighty nice..

Obvious lock. His .732 wOBA and 338 wRC+ make him an easy choice.




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[DamnYanks2]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Remember when people thought Ortiz was done like 3 years ago? LOL.