Who should win the AL MVP?

**NYJets** · 08-24-2003, 10:46 PM

Re: Who should win the AL MVP?

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dce1228 said:
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NYJets37 said:
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dce1228 said:
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NYJets37 said:
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dce1228 said:

As Nivek pointed out, and I've spoken of in other posts, Bonds is the definition of MVP because he is irreplaceable in the Giants offense.

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So if Bonds was putting up his current numbers, but on the Yankees, you wouldn't have him the MVP? I know people consider the strength of the team, but I just hate the argument.

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I keep attempting to answer this but the very notion give me indegestion so bad I can barely sit here at the computer...

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Thank you for that great contribution to this discussion.

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Okay fine, are you saying in place of Giambi or in addition to him? Because it would all be a matter of how many games this Bonds + Yankees team won... if they won 25 more games, which is plausible, yeah I could see him winning it... it's all about the ammount of games a team wins and how responsible that player is to that success, that's the formula in my mind.

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I'm saying, hypothetically speaking, if the Yankees had started this season, with the same team they have now, plus Bonds, and you have no idea what their record is in the real situation, would you be willing to give Bonds the mvp. My point is, you can't always tell how a team would be, without a certain player. How can you tell how many games the Yankees would win without Giambi? Is it safe to say they would be a good team, yea. But no one has any idea whether we would have won the same amount, 5 less, 10 less, or 20 less.

I'm not really arguing who the mvp should be with this post, I'm arguing the idea that you can base the mvp soley on how good the team would be without him. You just can't tell.

**NYJets** · 08-24-2003, 10:49 PM

Re: Who should win the AL MVP?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
nivek said:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
NYJets37 said:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
dce1228 said:

As Nivek pointed out, and I've spoken of in other posts, Bonds is the definition of MVP because he is irreplaceable in the Giants offense.

<hr /></blockquote>

So if Bonds was putting up his current numbers, but on the Yankees, you wouldn't have him the MVP? I know people consider the strength of the team, but I just hate the argument.

<hr /></blockquote>

Like I said before, number don't mean anything. It's all about value, so if you put Bonds in Yankee pinstrips his value drops.

For example: BOTTOM of the Ninth...your team is up one.

Bonds is up to bat, men on the corners, one out.

Do you walk bonds to get to Giambi or do you pitch to him?

Now put Bonds in that same situation as a Giant...will your strategy change or not?

<hr /></blockquote>

Well, I'd rather face anyone in the league than Bonds, so yes, I'd walk him to get to Giambi. But that isn't really the point I don't think.

I think you have to use numbers for the most part, because those are the only facts you have. Everything else is just speculation.

**NYJets** · 08-24-2003, 10:49 PM

Re: Who should win the AL MVP?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
nivek said:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
NYJets37 said:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
dce1228 said:

As Nivek pointed out, and I've spoken of in other posts, Bonds is the definition of MVP because he is irreplaceable in the Giants offense.

<hr /></blockquote>

So if Bonds was putting up his current numbers, but on the Yankees, you wouldn't have him the MVP? I know people consider the strength of the team, but I just hate the argument.

<hr /></blockquote>

Like I said before, number don't mean anything. It's all about value, so if you put Bonds in Yankee pinstrips his value drops.

For example: BOTTOM of the Ninth...your team is up one.

Bonds is up to bat, men on the corners, one out.

Do you walk bonds to get to Giambi or do you pitch to him?

Now put Bonds in that same situation as a Giant...will your strategy change or not?

<hr /></blockquote>

Well, I'd rather face anyone in the league than Bonds, so yes, I'd walk him to get to Giambi. But that isn't really the point I don't think.

I think you have to use numbers for the most part, because those are the only facts you have. Everything else is just speculation.

**NYJets** · 08-24-2003, 10:49 PM

Re: Who should win the AL MVP?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
nivek said:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
NYJets37 said:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
dce1228 said:

As Nivek pointed out, and I've spoken of in other posts, Bonds is the definition of MVP because he is irreplaceable in the Giants offense.

<hr /></blockquote>

So if Bonds was putting up his current numbers, but on the Yankees, you wouldn't have him the MVP? I know people consider the strength of the team, but I just hate the argument.

<hr /></blockquote>

Like I said before, number don't mean anything. It's all about value, so if you put Bonds in Yankee pinstrips his value drops.

For example: BOTTOM of the Ninth...your team is up one.

Bonds is up to bat, men on the corners, one out.

Do you walk bonds to get to Giambi or do you pitch to him?

Now put Bonds in that same situation as a Giant...will your strategy change or not?

<hr /></blockquote>

Well, I'd rather face anyone in the league than Bonds, so yes, I'd walk him to get to Giambi. But that isn't really the point I don't think.

I think you have to use numbers for the most part, because those are the only facts you have. Everything else is just speculation.

**dce1228** · 08-24-2003, 10:55 PM

Re: Who should win the AL MVP?

Does anyone know Bill James' formula for win shares? Basically he broke it down into tangible statistics to measure how much credit a player deserves for the success of his team. I think he then measured how that team would fare with the league average run production instead of that player, essentially adding or subtracting them... very interesting stuff... so, yeah, it might be possible to see and make an accurate depiction of the MVP.

If it's numbers you're looking for this is up your alley.

**dce1228** · 08-24-2003, 10:55 PM

Re: Who should win the AL MVP?

Does anyone know Bill James' formula for win shares? Basically he broke it down into tangible statistics to measure how much credit a player deserves for the success of his team. I think he then measured how that team would fare with the league average run production instead of that player, essentially adding or subtracting them... very interesting stuff... so, yeah, it might be possible to see and make an accurate depiction of the MVP.

If it's numbers you're looking for this is up your alley.

**dce1228** · 08-24-2003, 10:55 PM

Re: Who should win the AL MVP?

Does anyone know Bill James' formula for win shares? Basically he broke it down into tangible statistics to measure how much credit a player deserves for the success of his team. I think he then measured how that team would fare with the league average run production instead of that player, essentially adding or subtracting them... very interesting stuff... so, yeah, it might be possible to see and make an accurate depiction of the MVP.

If it's numbers you're looking for this is up your alley.

**Nivek** · 08-24-2003, 10:59 PM

Re: Who should win the AL MVP?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
NYJets37 said:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
nivek said:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
NYJets37 said:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
dce1228 said:

As Nivek pointed out, and I've spoken of in other posts, Bonds is the definition of MVP because he is irreplaceable in the Giants offense.

<hr /></blockquote>

So if Bonds was putting up his current numbers, but on the Yankees, you wouldn't have him the MVP? I know people consider the strength of the team, but I just hate the argument.

<hr /></blockquote>

Like I said before, number don't mean anything. It's all about value, so if you put Bonds in Yankee pinstrips his value drops.

For example: BOTTOM of the Ninth...your team is up one.

Bonds is up to bat, men on the corners, one out.

Do you walk bonds to get to Giambi or do you pitch to him?

Now put Bonds in that same situation as a Giant...will your strategy change or not?

<hr /></blockquote>

Well, I'd rather face anyone in the league than Bonds, so yes, I'd walk him to get to Giambi. But that isn't really the point I don't think.

I think you have to use numbers for the most part, because those are the only facts you have. Everything else is just speculation.

<hr /></blockquote>

Me personally, I'd pitch to Barry. I wouldn't want to bases loaded with the all that Yankee lineup. Numbers don't tell the whole story, but I understand what your trying to say in regards of it being the only TRUE method of determining the MVP. If that were the case, A-rod would have 2 MVP throphies in his mansion. I think it's 65% value to the team, 35% stats.

**Nivek** · 08-24-2003, 10:59 PM

Re: Who should win the AL MVP?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
NYJets37 said:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
nivek said:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
NYJets37 said:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
dce1228 said:

As Nivek pointed out, and I've spoken of in other posts, Bonds is the definition of MVP because he is irreplaceable in the Giants offense.

<hr /></blockquote>

So if Bonds was putting up his current numbers, but on the Yankees, you wouldn't have him the MVP? I know people consider the strength of the team, but I just hate the argument.

<hr /></blockquote>

Like I said before, number don't mean anything. It's all about value, so if you put Bonds in Yankee pinstrips his value drops.

For example: BOTTOM of the Ninth...your team is up one.

Bonds is up to bat, men on the corners, one out.

Do you walk bonds to get to Giambi or do you pitch to him?

Now put Bonds in that same situation as a Giant...will your strategy change or not?

<hr /></blockquote>

Well, I'd rather face anyone in the league than Bonds, so yes, I'd walk him to get to Giambi. But that isn't really the point I don't think.

I think you have to use numbers for the most part, because those are the only facts you have. Everything else is just speculation.

<hr /></blockquote>

Me personally, I'd pitch to Barry. I wouldn't want to bases loaded with the all that Yankee lineup. Numbers don't tell the whole story, but I understand what your trying to say in regards of it being the only TRUE method of determining the MVP. If that were the case, A-rod would have 2 MVP throphies in his mansion. I think it's 65% value to the team, 35% stats.

**Nivek** · 08-24-2003, 10:59 PM

Re: Who should win the AL MVP?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
NYJets37 said:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
nivek said:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
NYJets37 said:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
dce1228 said:

As Nivek pointed out, and I've spoken of in other posts, Bonds is the definition of MVP because he is irreplaceable in the Giants offense.

<hr /></blockquote>

So if Bonds was putting up his current numbers, but on the Yankees, you wouldn't have him the MVP? I know people consider the strength of the team, but I just hate the argument.

<hr /></blockquote>

Like I said before, number don't mean anything. It's all about value, so if you put Bonds in Yankee pinstrips his value drops.

For example: BOTTOM of the Ninth...your team is up one.

Bonds is up to bat, men on the corners, one out.

Do you walk bonds to get to Giambi or do you pitch to him?

Now put Bonds in that same situation as a Giant...will your strategy change or not?

<hr /></blockquote>

Well, I'd rather face anyone in the league than Bonds, so yes, I'd walk him to get to Giambi. But that isn't really the point I don't think.

I think you have to use numbers for the most part, because those are the only facts you have. Everything else is just speculation.

<hr /></blockquote>

Me personally, I'd pitch to Barry. I wouldn't want to bases loaded with the all that Yankee lineup. Numbers don't tell the whole story, but I understand what your trying to say in regards of it being the only TRUE method of determining the MVP. If that were the case, A-rod would have 2 MVP throphies in his mansion. I think it's 65% value to the team, 35% stats.

**AI_Franchise03** · 08-24-2003, 11:02 PM

Re: Who should win the AL MVP?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
dce1228 said:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
AI_Franchise03 said:

You didn't need to make the point for me. I was just waiting for you to comment if you do think it's funny and perhaps why, so that I could respond how you're wrong, but I guess you want me to thank you?

<hr /></blockquote>

Giambi being relegated to the DH slot in favor of the better fielding Nick Johnson makes Giambi as versatile as Jeff Weaver is versatile, pitching middle relief while Jose Contreras goes into the starting rotation. There's a giant difference between that 'versatility' and what Aaron Boone did for the Reds the last year and a half (i.e. playing SS when Larkin was hurt, 2b to start the season to accomodate Brandon Larson, then switching back to 3rd when Larson bit the big one). In other words... IT ISN'T VERSATILITY. End of story. Find a new word to illuminate the underappreciated brilliance of Jason Giambi.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

The last thing, I don't think I made the point I wanted to, concerning Bonds. You sayed you can't give the MVP to a DH,
Barry Bonds helps his team more with his bat than his glove. He plays LF regularly, but that doesn't mean he's helping the team very much with his defense.

<hr /></blockquote>

As Nivek pointed out, and I've spoken of in other posts, Bonds is the definition of MVP because he is irreplaceable in the Giants offense. And he isn't a DH, like Giambi. He plays the field. I believe with all my soul that Ichiro is more important to the M's than Giambi is to the Yankees-- as do most people... 3 out of the 4 ESPN analysists agreed, with Joe Morgan calling them even.

You believe Giambi is the most important because you think the Yankees are the most important. You haven't so much as said anything virtuous about Giambi's competition in this thread-- I think that pretty much makes clear that you lack the groundedness to make any opinions worth a damn.

<hr /></blockquote>

The only guys who you brought up and much of this tread is Ichiro. I bet he does great things for Seattle to help that team win, Giambi does the same with his bat. I'm making a case for my guy, you're making a case for Ichiro. Want me to help?

Joe Morgan believes MVP goes to Ichiro, good for him. Though he feels like it's a tight race but he gives his notch to Ichiro thanks to his all-around game.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
..and what he had to overcome this season for the sake of the team.

<hr /></blockquote>

What I was talking about.

Bonds should thank his team's pitching staff, that's the only thing separating him and Pujols.

**AI_Franchise03** · 08-24-2003, 11:02 PM

Re: Who should win the AL MVP?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
dce1228 said:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
AI_Franchise03 said:

You didn't need to make the point for me. I was just waiting for you to comment if you do think it's funny and perhaps why, so that I could respond how you're wrong, but I guess you want me to thank you?

<hr /></blockquote>

Giambi being relegated to the DH slot in favor of the better fielding Nick Johnson makes Giambi as versatile as Jeff Weaver is versatile, pitching middle relief while Jose Contreras goes into the starting rotation. There's a giant difference between that 'versatility' and what Aaron Boone did for the Reds the last year and a half (i.e. playing SS when Larkin was hurt, 2b to start the season to accomodate Brandon Larson, then switching back to 3rd when Larson bit the big one). In other words... IT ISN'T VERSATILITY. End of story. Find a new word to illuminate the underappreciated brilliance of Jason Giambi.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

The last thing, I don't think I made the point I wanted to, concerning Bonds. You sayed you can't give the MVP to a DH,
Barry Bonds helps his team more with his bat than his glove. He plays LF regularly, but that doesn't mean he's helping the team very much with his defense.

<hr /></blockquote>

As Nivek pointed out, and I've spoken of in other posts, Bonds is the definition of MVP because he is irreplaceable in the Giants offense. And he isn't a DH, like Giambi. He plays the field. I believe with all my soul that Ichiro is more important to the M's than Giambi is to the Yankees-- as do most people... 3 out of the 4 ESPN analysists agreed, with Joe Morgan calling them even.

You believe Giambi is the most important because you think the Yankees are the most important. You haven't so much as said anything virtuous about Giambi's competition in this thread-- I think that pretty much makes clear that you lack the groundedness to make any opinions worth a damn.

<hr /></blockquote>

The only guys who you brought up and much of this tread is Ichiro. I bet he does great things for Seattle to help that team win, Giambi does the same with his bat. I'm making a case for my guy, you're making a case for Ichiro. Want me to help?

Joe Morgan believes MVP goes to Ichiro, good for him. Though he feels like it's a tight race but he gives his notch to Ichiro thanks to his all-around game.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
..and what he had to overcome this season for the sake of the team.

<hr /></blockquote>

What I was talking about.

Bonds should thank his team's pitching staff, that's the only thing separating him and Pujols.

**AI_Franchise03** · 08-24-2003, 11:02 PM

Re: Who should win the AL MVP?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
dce1228 said:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
AI_Franchise03 said:

You didn't need to make the point for me. I was just waiting for you to comment if you do think it's funny and perhaps why, so that I could respond how you're wrong, but I guess you want me to thank you?

<hr /></blockquote>

Giambi being relegated to the DH slot in favor of the better fielding Nick Johnson makes Giambi as versatile as Jeff Weaver is versatile, pitching middle relief while Jose Contreras goes into the starting rotation. There's a giant difference between that 'versatility' and what Aaron Boone did for the Reds the last year and a half (i.e. playing SS when Larkin was hurt, 2b to start the season to accomodate Brandon Larson, then switching back to 3rd when Larson bit the big one). In other words... IT ISN'T VERSATILITY. End of story. Find a new word to illuminate the underappreciated brilliance of Jason Giambi.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

The last thing, I don't think I made the point I wanted to, concerning Bonds. You sayed you can't give the MVP to a DH,
Barry Bonds helps his team more with his bat than his glove. He plays LF regularly, but that doesn't mean he's helping the team very much with his defense.

<hr /></blockquote>

As Nivek pointed out, and I've spoken of in other posts, Bonds is the definition of MVP because he is irreplaceable in the Giants offense. And he isn't a DH, like Giambi. He plays the field. I believe with all my soul that Ichiro is more important to the M's than Giambi is to the Yankees-- as do most people... 3 out of the 4 ESPN analysists agreed, with Joe Morgan calling them even.

You believe Giambi is the most important because you think the Yankees are the most important. You haven't so much as said anything virtuous about Giambi's competition in this thread-- I think that pretty much makes clear that you lack the groundedness to make any opinions worth a damn.

<hr /></blockquote>

The only guys who you brought up and much of this tread is Ichiro. I bet he does great things for Seattle to help that team win, Giambi does the same with his bat. I'm making a case for my guy, you're making a case for Ichiro. Want me to help?

Joe Morgan believes MVP goes to Ichiro, good for him. Though he feels like it's a tight race but he gives his notch to Ichiro thanks to his all-around game.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
..and what he had to overcome this season for the sake of the team.

<hr /></blockquote>

What I was talking about.

Bonds should thank his team's pitching staff, that's the only thing separating him and Pujols.

**Nokona** · 08-24-2003, 11:23 PM

Re: Who should win the AL MVP?

I'd walk Barry to make the double play more available. Then I'd bring in a lefty to pitch to Giambi and cross my fingers.

**Nokona** · 08-24-2003, 11:23 PM

Re: Who should win the AL MVP?

I'd walk Barry to make the double play more available. Then I'd bring in a lefty to pitch to Giambi and cross my fingers.

Who should win the AL MVP?

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