Red Sox agree to terms with Carl Crawford

[CabreraMVP]

Re: Red Sox agree to terms with Carl Crawford

Is he going to be the anchor of a lineup for a decade? Guys around the league that make 20 million do that. Will Crawford?

[EnigmaNemesis]

You do not have be an "anchor" to be considered "Elite", which again, you go back to the power hitter logic with your examples. He will also be providing a lot more to help indeed anchor the lineup.

The man steals more than 50 bags a year. Arguably the best fielding outfielder in the game. Hits for average, scores runs, hits in the clutch. Five tool man. And a "game changer". You also fail to take into account the market changing. Prices are going up. And Pujols will be more than 20 mil a year as well as others.

Not to mention he is sure to improve even more at the plate with that lineup.


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[bigfnjoe96]

Re: Red Sox agree to terms with Carl Crawford

Is he going to be the anchor of a lineup for a decade? Guys around the league that make 20 million do that. Will Crawford?

He doesn't need to be the anchor, that's why they got Gonzalez. Not to mention already Youk. This was a brilliant move by Epstein.

[Matt_350z]

Re: Red Sox agree to terms with Carl Crawford

I don't care. It doesn't matter, its a moot point. If he can be an impact player for the next 5 years, doesn't matter to me in the least.
He's a health/fitness nut. I don't see him being one of those guys that just breaks down.
The Red Sox are one of two, maybe 3 teams that can certainly afford to overpay for two extra years on a contract.

They spent how much just for the rights to talk to Dice K? This Crawford contract looks like a no brainer when compared to that.
If they get 5 solid season out of him in LF, I'll be a happy camper. They could do far worse moving him to RF or DH the last couple years.

Bottom line. It was a great move.

[CMH]

Re: Red Sox agree to terms with Carl Crawford

Is he going to be the anchor of a lineup for a decade? Guys around the league that make 20 million do that. Will Crawford?

I think the point is: $20 MM isn't for the one star player on a team anymore.

Many analysts and GMs as well have considered Carl Crawford one of the top 10 players in the game.

The game.

[CabreraMVP]

Re: Red Sox agree to terms with Carl Crawford

You do not have be an "anchor" to be considered "Elite", which again, you go back to the power hitter logic with your examples. He will also be providing a lot more to help indeed anchor the lineup.

It depends on your definition of elite. If GM's got to choose, they would take Cabrera, Pujols, Texieria, A-Rod, etc. over him. The most important, and hardest thing to find in baseball is that slugger in the middle of the order that can carry your team. Those guys get paid the most, they are the elite players of the game.

Crawford in terms of talent is elite, he is the only player that can do a little bit of everything, and has the right mindset. Matt Kemp has plenty of tools, but he's lazy. Crawford is a hard worker. Impact player, but not a franchise player in my opinion. That's my opinion. If I was a GM, I wouldn't pay him like a franchise player because I don't see him as one. That's just what I think. Would I love to have him? Of course. But not when you can find an elite slugger at the same price. That's my philosophy.

[CMH]

Re: Red Sox agree to terms with Carl Crawford

But not when you can find an elite slugger at the same price. That's my philosophy.

And this is where your philosophy is clashing with others.

You see elite as the slugger. Others see it as something different.

If you haven't figured it out by now here, many guys that frequent the baseball forum here do not care for back of the card baseball stats. While HR and RBI are nice stats and important, there are for more stats that deliver the same impact and benefit to a team.

Carl Crawford despite the lack of HR and RBI makes up for his production in other ways. Unfortunately, it's not easy to see like a number next to HR and RBI.

But this is why I said it's obvious why certain teams targeted Crawford over Werth. Werth brings more power, but those GMs know that Crawford brings more impact. The back of a baseball card won't tell you that. And now I shall return to Joey Votto's mother's basement where we like to discuss tactics in our Dungeons and Dragons game.

[CabreraMVP]

Re: Red Sox agree to terms with Carl Crawford

I am not basing anything off of just HR and RBI. I'm simply saying, those true anchors in the middle of the lineup, the guys that are the best run producers, are the elite players.

I'm not judging Crawford off of HR and RBI. I'm judging his ability to drive in runs. What else does that other than Hr, RBI, and BA with RISP?

I didn't say he wasn't elite because he isn't driving 130 every year. I said the guys that are elite, the 20 million guys, the true middle of the order hitters who hit for power, average, and just flat out carry their teams.

Crawford does more than hit, obviously. I'm saying that for 20 million, I'd rather have one of those .300/30/115 elite sluggers than a solid all around player.

You can find great defenders for 1 million. You can find some solid speed guys for cheap. You can't find a subsitute for a middle of the order hitter. That's why I wouldn't want to pay a solid all around player the same as one of those elite sluggers that everyteam strives to have.

People aren't getting what I'm saying. I'm not hating on Crawford. I'm not judging him based off HR and RBI. That was taken out of context. I'm not going to pay a leadoff hitter or 2nd hitter 142 million. that takes me back to what I said earlier, about him hitting third. He is worth much closer to 20 million in my opinion if he is hitting 3rd, and driving in runs like he did last year. But also, he didn't drive in runs in 2009 at a great pace, he didn't hit well with RISP. So it's tough to say if he is a true middle of the order guy who can consistently drive in runs like a number 3 hitter should. He's got to do it again. And this isn't me judging him as a player off of back of the baseball card numbers. It's judging his ability to DRIVE IN RUNS, not ability to impact the game.

[CMH]

Re: Red Sox agree to terms with Carl Crawford

I am not basing anything off of just HR and RBI. I'm simply saying, those true anchors in the middle of the lineup, the guys that are the best run producers, are the elite players.

I'm not judging Crawford off of HR and RBI. I'm judging his ability to drive in runs. What else does that other than Hr, RBI, and BA with RISP?

I didn't say he wasn't elite because he isn't driving 130 every year. I said the guys that are elite, the 20 million guys, the true middle of the order hitters who hit for power, average, and just flat out carry their teams.

Crawford does more than hit, obviously. I'm saying that for 20 million, I'd rather have one of those .300/30/115 elite sluggers than a solid all around player.

You can find great defenders for 1 million. You can find some solid speed guys for cheap. You can't find a subsitute for a middle of the order hitter. That's why I wouldn't want to pay a solid all around player the same as one of those elite sluggers that everyteam strives to have.

People aren't getting what I'm saying. I'm not hating on Crawford. I'm not judging him based off HR and RBI. That was taken out of context. I'm not going to pay a leadoff hitter or 2nd hitter 142 million. that takes me back to what I said earlier, about him hitting third. He is worth much closer to 20 million in my opinion if he is hitting 3rd, and driving in runs like he did last year. But also, he didn't drive in runs in 2009 at a great pace, he didn't hit well with RISP. So it's tough to say if he is a true middle of the order guy who can consistently drive in runs like a number 3 hitter should. He's got to do it again. And this isn't me judging him as a player off of back of the baseball card numbers. It's judging his ability to DRIVE IN RUNS, not ability to impact the game.

Driving in runs is RBI - Runner's Batted In. So, you are judging him by his RBI. And that's fine. I'm not saying you're wrong. You see that as being elite - a guy that drives in runs.

I see it as being elite the ability to get on-base and score those runs.

I think you're ignoring that side of the equation. There are guys that drive in runs and guys that score runs. Teams need both. One isn't more important than the other when it comes to winning games.

[CabreraMVP]

Re: Red Sox agree to terms with Carl Crawford

The guys I am talking bout - elite sluggers- do both. Cabrera, Pujols, Texeria, are three guys that get on base more, drive in more runs, and scored more runs last year. The typical 20 million guys I am talking about do all those things. They get on base more than Crawford, they score more, and they drive in more. For a table setter like Crawford is, he has only scored 100 runs 3 times in his career.

[ryan36]

Re: Red Sox agree to terms with Carl Crawford

So is Ichiro elite?

And when I disagree with Snepp, I just infract him...maybe that will help?

[WazzuRC]

Re: Red Sox agree to terms with Carl Crawford

A run scored is the same as a run allowed, no matter how you slice it. I guarantee Crawford has saved a lot more runs than any of your elite sluggers you've listed.

[bigfnjoe96]

The guys I am talking bout - elite sluggers- do both. Cabrera, Pujols, Texeria, are three guys that get on base more, drive in more runs, and scored more runs last year. The typical 20 million guys I am talking about do all those things. They get on base more than Crawford, they score more, and they drive in more. For a table setter like Crawford is, he has only scored 100 runs 3 times in his career.

You do know that Crawford played on some bad rays teams the 1st what 5 seasons of his career. So to say he's only had 3 100 run seasons is a little unfair.





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[CabreraMVP]

Re: Red Sox agree to terms with Carl Crawford

You do know that Crawford played on some bad rays teams the 1st what 5 seasons of his career. So to say he's only had 3 100 run seasons is a little unfair.

Two of his three 100 run seasons, were in 2004 and 2005. When they were bad.

Texas wasn't any good when Teixeira was scoring a lot of runs for them. Cabrera has scored 100 runs four times - each time was a team that was no more than 4 games over .500.

A run scored is the same as a run allowed, no matter how you slice it. I guarantee Crawford has saved a lot more runs than any of your elite sluggers you've listed.

He has, I'm sure. He's saved much more runs, but they have created much more.

[SoxFan01605]

Re: Red Sox agree to terms with Carl Crawford

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index...carl-crawford/

Over the last two years, the only position players with a higher WAR than Crawford are Albert Pujols, Evan Longoria, Ryan Zimmerman, Joe Mauer, and Chase Utley. Crawford is ahead of sluggers like Adrian Gonzalez, Joey Votto, and Miguel Cabrera, but as we saw with Gonzalez’s extension, that kind of money for their skillset is considered acceptable. Just because Crawford creates wins in a different way doesn’t make those wins less valuable. If you buy into Crawford being an elite defender, then he is worth this contract, and maybe even a little bit more.