Soriano...worst FA ever?

[hip2p]

Re: Soriano...worst FA ever?

Yeah, he was absolutely atrocious last year.

Yeah, because contracts are judged based on the first year.

[TCM]

Re: Soriano...worst FA ever?

Yeah, because contracts are judged based on the first year.

He's only pitched one full year on his new contract, and he finished 3rd in Cy Young voting. Give him a break, he's only going through a rough patch. Saying his contract is the worst of all time by far after making 6 or 7 bad starts in ONE season is absurd.

Who cares if he's winless, that's the most useless stat ever.

[hip2p]

Re: Soriano...worst FA ever?

He's only pitched one full year on his new contract, and he finished 3rd in Cy Young voting. Give him a break, he's only going through a rough patch. Saying his contract is the worst of all time by far after making 6 or 7 bad starts in ONE season is absurd.

Who cares if he's winless, that's the most useless stat ever.

Who mentioned wins? He'll be making 28 million dollars at age 37 on a rebuilding team. How can you possibly justify that for a starter who hasn't always been dominant and has been a bad luck charm two straight years?

[TCM]

Re: Soriano...worst FA ever?

Who mentioned wins? He'll be making 28 million dollars at age 37 on a rebuilding team. How can you possibly justify that for a starter who hasn't always been dominant and has been a bad luck charm two straight years?

Sorry, it seems like everyone is talking about how Cliff Lee sucks because he's winless. Cliff Lee could have the best years of his career, or he could turn into Barry Zito by the end of this contract, but it's pretty premature to say his contract is the worst of all time a year and a half into it. He's been productive thus far.

Barry Zito's best year with the Giants was when he posted an ERA of 4.03 and a whip of 1.35, not to mention he's making 18 million a year and pitching in AT&T Park.

[hip2p]

Re: Soriano...worst FA ever?

Sorry, it seems like everyone is talking about how Cliff Lee sucks because he's winless. Cliff Lee could have the best years of his career, or he could turn into Barry Zito by the end of this contract, but it's pretty premature to say his contract is the worst of all time a year and a half into it. He's been productive thus far.

Barry Zito's best year with the Giants was when he posted an ERA of 4.03 and a whip of 1.35, not to mention he's making 18 million a year and pitching in AT&T Park.

And he has a World Series ring, whereas Lee's Rangers and Phillies flopped. Look, I'm not going to suggest that Zito made much of an impact on that WS team or that Lee really did too much to hurt those Rangers or Phillies teams (although he was somewhat of a detriment).

In the long run, we're talking about the worst signing ever. To win that acclaim, a contract had to have a greatly negative impact on the team. So far, Zito's contract has amounted to the team still winning a World Series and competing year in, year out. Will Lee's contract allow for the Phillies to ever win a WS? It's obviously doubtful this year; and now because of his contract, they may not be able to keep Hamels. As a result, the team will be far worse next year.

Lee's contract is looking to be worse than Zito's. At least San Fran got a WS in spite of it.

[TCM]

Re: Soriano...worst FA ever?

And he has a World Series ring, whereas Lee's Rangers and Phillies flopped. Look, I'm not going to suggest that Zito made much of an impact on that WS team or that Lee really did too much to hurt those Rangers or Phillies teams (although he was somewhat of a detriment).

In the long run, we're talking about the worst signing ever. To win that acclaim, a contract had to have a greatly negative impact on the team. So far, Zito's contract has amounted to the team still winning a World Series and competing year in, year out. Will Lee's contract allow for the Phillies to ever win a WS? It's obviously doubtful this year; and now because of his contract, they may not be able to keep Hamels. As a result, the team will be far worse next year.

Lee's contract is looking to be worse than Zito's. At least San Fran got a WS in spite of it.

I honestly have no idea how to respond to that logic, maybe the contracts of Ryan Howard, Jonathan Papelbon, Chase Utley, Jimmy Rollins, and Roy Halladay are contributing to the hand cuffing on the Phillies payroll too? It's not like the Phillies are a small market team, Cliff Lee isn't solely responsible for their downfall and at least he's productive.

And even if you did sign Cole Hamels, what type of contract do you think he'd be getting? It would definitely be comparable to Cliff Lee's.

[IlliniM1ke]

Re: Soriano...worst FA ever?

Yeah that is about the worst logic towards this topic I've seen.

So because the Giants were good enough to win a WS even though Zito was on the roster Zito is a better FA signing than Cliff Lee because the Phillies didn't win the WS last year?

Cliff Lee pitched great last year not his fault the rest of the team didn't do enough to advance.

On the flip side to say Zito wasn't a bad signing because SF managed to win a WS despite his awful contract eating up significant payroll makes absolutely no sense his contract was still awful.

[hip2p]

Re: Soriano...worst FA ever?

Yeah that is about the worst logic towards this topic I've seen.

So because the Giants were good enough to win a WS even though Zito was on the roster Zito is a better FA signing than Cliff Lee because the Phillies didn't win the WS last year?

Cliff Lee pitched great last year not his fault the rest of the team didn't do enough to advance.

On the flip side to say Zito wasn't a bad signing because SF managed to win a WS despite his awful contract eating up significant payroll makes absolutely no sense his contract was still awful.

The reason why it seems like bad logic is because you have a hard time with reading comprehension. I did not say that Zito "wasn't a bad signing". I said that Lee's is and will be considered worse because the Phillies will not win a WS ring with him under contract. As long as that remains true, there's no possible way Zito's could have been worse. Remember, contracts are only bad as a function of how they negatively affect the team. The Giants have contended every year and won a WS, so I wouldn't say Zito's contract is the worst ever. It's still bad, but it's not worse than Hampton, Soriano, or Lee.

Also, both you and TCM have a strange way of defining success. You said:

"Cliff Lee pitched great last year not his fault the rest of the team didn't do enough to advance."

TCM said:

"Cliff Lee isn't solely responsible for their downfall and at least he's productive."

Explain to me how 5 earned runs, 12 hits, and 2 walks in 6 innings constitutes "productive" and "not his fault the rest of the team didn't do enough to advance." Are you really saying the Phillies offense was at fault for not scoring enough runs to overcome that kind of playoff start?

How he pitched during the season was great, but who cares? He blew it in his playoff start, which is the only one that ultimately matters.

Of course, he had pitched so well for the Rangers, so his contract made sense at the time, right? Uh....

Care to explain to me how 9 earned runs in 11.2 innings in the World Series against a poor hitting team in the Giants constitutes "productive" and "not his fault the rest of the team didn't do enough to [win]"?

You'll probably say, "ah come on man, the guy was good for the rest of the 2010 playoffs. Ya.. the same guy who had a 6.53 ERA in August after being traded. The same guy who went 3-5 down the stretch... doesn't sound very "productive" or "not his fault the rest of the team didn't do enough to advance."

Fact is, many people think Cliff Lee is some sort of great pitcher who has accomplished a lot. Seems to me he's a guy who was signed to a huge contract prior to having accomplished much of anything in terms of post season success. Since the signing, he's pitched some nice regular season games that amounted to a first round loss to a wild card team. And he did nothing to prevent that.

And then TCM throws out this gem: "And even if you did sign Cole Hamels, what type of contract do you think he'd be getting? It would definitely be comparable to Cliff Lee's."

Comparable to Cliff Lee? You're comparing a World Series MVP who has been one of the best pitchers in baseball since he entered the league and is still only 28 years old to a guy who has been inconsistent and a total failure when it counts in the post season? Surely you jest.

If Lee is worth 28 per year at age 37, then Hamels is worth at least 30-35 million.

In summary, I don't know how you can defend anything Lee has done. He's officially the worst signing in the history of baseball.

[TCM]

Re: Soriano...worst FA ever?

I agree hip2p, Cliff Lee was an amazing signing.

[snepp]

Re: Soriano...worst FA ever?

Jumped the shark has been.

[hip2p]

Re: Soriano...worst FA ever?

I agree hip2p, Cliff Lee was an amazing signing.

A simple response from a simple man.