2013 Regular Season Awards

[snepp]

Re: MVP

Those smarter than I have determined that McCutchen has a 5 to 1 run advantage in base running value over Cuddyer. Which set is more accurate? Hell if I know. Also of note, BP has them at roughly 1 run a piece.

Why didn't you address anything about the positions they play or their defensive values? Those things are kind of important, we're not debating the Silver Slugger awards.

[rdnk]

Re: 2013 Regular Season Awards

NL MVP: McCutchen
AL MVP: Cabrera
AL Cy Young: Scherzer
NL Cy Young: Kershaw
AL Manager: Francona
NL Manager: Huddle
AL ROY: Wil Meyers
NL ROY: Jose Fernandez

[Chip Douglass]

Re: MVP

McCutchen would get my vote, to be clear. But, you would be incorrect as far as Cuddyer's value on the basepaths. Those smarter than I have determined that Cuddy and McCutchen are worth the exact same number of runs on the basepaths: 3.

Next point, ballparks:
Cuddyer and McCutchen have very similar numbers in the way of HRs and RBIs (20/84 for Cuddy and 21/84 for McCutcheon)... now, your Coors Field argument might rear it's ugly head... until you take a look at road numbers. Nearly identical:

Cuddyer: .311 AVG, .367 OBP, .485 SLG, 9 HR, 39 RBI
McCutchen: .298 AVG, .381 OBP, .478 SLG, 12 HR, 38 RBI

Now, to be fair, when looking at OPS+ (which is adjusted by ballpark), McCutchen has a 158-137 advantage. Which is pretty significant. But with numbers that similar on the road, and numbers slightly favoring Cuddy at home, I think the argument could be made that Cuddyer would have faired just as well as McCutchen in Pittsburgh. You can't fault a guy for what park he plays in.

Now, all that having been said, if I had a vote I would go:

1. McCutchen
2. Carpenter
3. Cuddyer or Goldschmidt; leaning toward Goldschmidt

So, Cuddy wouldn't probably even be in my top three, but in my mind he's definitely there.

Dude, McCutchen completely destroys Cuddyer in terms of overall value.

Better hitter, vastly better defender at a significantly harder position to play, better baserunner (via Fangraphs), and played 27 more games than Cuddyer.

Cuddyer really isn't "definitely there." He's not even a top 40 player in the NL in WAR on either Fangraphs or baseball-reference. There's a bigger difference in WAR between Andrew McCutchen and Michael Cuddyer than there is between Michael Cuddyer and Dan Uggla.

[royals19]

Re: 2013 Regular Season Awards

AL MVP- Mike Trout showed that last season wasn't a fluke and that he could put up just as good of numbers as he did last year. Really this should still be a two legged race between Trout and Miggy. I understand last year with Trout being a rookie and Miggy winning the Triple Crown but this year, Trout had a huge impact despite his team not making the playoffs (which probably will haunt him).
NL MVP- Andrew McCutchen was literally the heart and soul of the Pirates this season. This award shouldn't even be contested. Without McCutchen, do the Pirates make the playoffs? Probably not. Despite having worse numbers than last season, McCutchen was able to use all 5 of his tools to push the Pirates into the postseason and that made the difference for this year.
AL Cy Young- Max Scherzer- Had Clay Buchholz pitched the entire season the way he did the first half, I probably would've had him here but nobody dominated the way Scherzer did this year. After just watching him bail himself out of a bases loaded situation in a crucial situation a few hours ago, that pretty much sealed the deal.
NL Cy Young- Clayton Kershaw- Kershaw posted one of the best seasons for a lefthander since Sandy Koufax. Despite how well Zack Greinke pitched and how Wainwright dominated, Kershaw still reigns supreme.
AL Manager of the Year-John Farrell- Farrell really established himself as a big league manager this year. The fact that he was able to reign in the Boston mystique and take a less than stellar roster and generate a 97 game winner is an incredible feat. I could also see Terry Francona as a close second but regardless, Farrell's accomplishment this season can't be ignored.
NL Manager of the Year-Donnie Mattingly- I really wanted to put Clint Hurdle here but it was hard to ignore Mattingly's accomplishment this season. He was able to come from the brink of being fired to running the Dodgers to the playoffs. Granted, the Dodgers are one of the more talented teams in the league but the fact that Mattingly was able to reign in so many personalities and take them from worst to first is an impressive accomplishment.
AL Rookie of the Year- Wil Myers- Myers came in and helped carry the Rays to the playoffs. Without him, I don't see Tampa having the roster to make the playoffs this year. The fact that he was able to enjoy such success in a tough division is the mark of a talented young player.
NL Rookie of the Year- Shelby Miller- I thought about Fernandez and Puig here but then I realized that Miller was the steady horse who contributed the most to his team. Granted, Fernandez had an incredible season this year and Puig was electrifying. But the fact of the matter is, Shelby Miller was a huge key to the Cardinals success this season and he didn't show any signs of pressure while being forced to bear much of the burden as the Cards pressed towards the playoffs.

[mb625]

Re: MVP

Those smarter than I have determined that McCutchen has a 5 to 1 run advantage in base running value over Cuddyer. Which set is more accurate? Hell if I know. Also of note, BP has them at roughly 1 run a piece.

Why didn't you address anything about the positions they play or their defensive values? Those things are kind of important, we're not debating the Silver Slugger awards.

I got my numbers from baseball reference, which has them both at 3. The reason I didn't address fielding is because I concede that McCutchen is the better fielder. All I'm saying is that, looking solely at traditional stats, which is largely what I care about (the only reason I brought up runs created on the basepaths was because that was the only way to compare apples to apples when Cuddyer only ran 13 times to McCutchen's 37.), they look awfully even. And that's why I'd consider him to be in the mix. Outside of the top three, but in the mix. When you look at the traditional stats, Cuddyer wins most of them. And that's what, for me, puts him in the conversation. That is also why I find it ridiculous to dismiss him completely. He won the batting title and had very good numbers across the board. He's not in the top 3, but I still think he's in there.

EDIT: Here are the stats I had:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...uddymi01.shtml
http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...ccutan01.shtml

[Sportsforever]

Re: 2013 Regular Season Awards

I can't believe I come into this thread and find Michael Cuddyer being discussed as an MVP candidate. How a shoddy fielder playing in Coors Field for a losing ball club is even mentioned against a guy like McCutchen does not compute.

By every metric, saber or conventional, McCutchen was a MUCH better player. Cuddyer was NOT a top 3 player in the NL this year...period.

The only thing I can figure is this has to be homerism or trolling...there can be no other explanation. Cuddyer won the NL Batting title...and that's all he will win this year.

[mb625]

Re: 2013 Regular Season Awards

I can't believe I come into this thread and find Michael Cuddyer being discussed as an MVP candidate. How a shoddy fielder playing in Coors Field for a losing ball club is even mentioned against a guy like McCutchen does not compute.

By every metric, saber or conventional, McCutchen was a MUCH better player. Cuddyer was NOT a top 3 player in the NL this year...period.

The only thing I can figure is this has to be homerism or trolling...there can be no other explanation. Cuddyer won the NL Batting title...and that's all he will win this year.

I'm not saying he's top 3. I have been clear that I've got him fourth. And if we're looking at conventional metrics it looks like this (AVG, OBP, SLG, HR, RBI):

Cuddyer: .331/.389/.530/20/84
McCutchen: .317/.404/.508/21/84

Please explain to me how those numbers make McCutchen MUCH better than Cuddyer. I'd love to hear it. Because that looks pretty darn even to me. And as far as the basepaths go, Cuddyer was successful 10 of 13 steal attempts (77%), McCutchen was successful on 27 of 37 (73%) which means that McCutchen was running himself off the basepaths more often than Cuddyer, which, in my mind, negates his effects as a base stealer. Where McCutchen becomes the clear winner is defensively.

In terms of sabermetrics, I don't know enough about them to say definitively but the only things I can figure that put McCutchen so far above Cuddyer in offensive sabermetrics are the slightly higher OBP (which I think Cuddyer makes up for in SLG, but that's just me), the stolen bases (which I think are overrated, because all I see are the ten times that McCutchen ran himself off the basepaths) and the fact that McCutchen scored 19 more runs than Cuddyer (which is fair). To me that doesn't scream night and day difference offensively. It says slight difference if any at all.

Perhaps, though, McCutchen isn't the best comparison, but I do think he stands up well enough to be considered as a top 3 candidate. I think there is a much better comparison between him and Matt Carpenter. I've seen support for Carpenter earlier in the thread. Here's the slashline

Cuddyer: See above
Carpenter: .318/.392/.481/11/78

I see a difference between those two in favor of Cuddyer, Carpenter does have a large advantage in runs scored, but to me Cuddyer's huge advantage slugging makes up for it. Outside of Carpenter's superior defense, which in my mind isn't good enough to get him over the hump, Cuddyer has the advantage.

So... all that being said, let me revise my rankings:

1. McCutchen
2. Goldschmidt
3. Carpenter/Cuddyer... you've actually got me leaning more toward Cuddyer at three the more I defend this...

I don't know, maybe it is the fact that he was a Twin for so long and then became a Rockie that's making me say all this... I don't *think* so, because that was not the angle I was coming at this from in the first place. I just see that average and that OPS number that is oh, so close to McCutchen's, and wonder why he's not even in the discussion just because of the ballpark he plays at. That seems like an unnecessary handicap. Numbers are numbers and he has to play away from Coors for 81 games...

[cardinalbird5]

Re: 2013 Regular Season Awards

Cuddyer over Carpenter is laughable. If Carpenter play at Coors he'd hit .350+.

[Sportsforever]

Re: 2013 Regular Season Awards

I'm not saying he's top 3. I have been clear that I've got him fourth. And if we're looking at conventional metrics it looks like this (AVG, OBP, SLG, HR, RBI):

Cuddyer: .331/.389/.530/20/84
McCutchen: .317/.404/.508/21/84

Please explain to me how those numbers make McCutchen MUCH better than Cuddyer. I'd love to hear it. Because that looks pretty darn even to me. And as far as the basepaths go, Cuddyer was successful 10 of 13 steal attempts (77%), McCutchen was successful on 27 of 37 (73%) which means that McCutchen was running himself off the basepaths more often than Cuddyer, which, in my mind, negates his effects as a base stealer. Where McCutchen becomes the clear winner is defensively.

In terms of sabermetrics, I don't know enough about them to say definitively but the only things I can figure that put McCutchen so far above Cuddyer in offensive sabermetrics are the slightly higher OBP (which I think Cuddyer makes up for in SLG, but that's just me), the stolen bases (which I think are overrated, because all I see are the ten times that McCutchen ran himself off the basepaths) and the fact that McCutchen scored 19 more runs than Cuddyer (which is fair). To me that doesn't scream night and day difference offensively. It says slight difference if any at all.

Perhaps, though, McCutchen isn't the best comparison, but I do think he stands up well enough to be considered as a top 3 candidate. I think there is a much better comparison between him and Matt Carpenter. I've seen support for Carpenter earlier in the thread. Here's the slashline

Cuddyer: See above
Carpenter: .318/.392/.481/11/78

I see a difference between those two in favor of Cuddyer, Carpenter does have a large advantage in runs scored, but to me Cuddyer's huge advantage slugging makes up for it. Outside of Carpenter's superior defense, which in my mind isn't good enough to get him over the hump, Cuddyer has the advantage.

So... all that being said, let me revise my rankings:

1. McCutchen
2. Goldschmidt
3. Carpenter/Cuddyer... you've actually got me leaning more toward Cuddyer at three the more I defend this...

I don't know, maybe it is the fact that he was a Twin for so long and then became a Rockie that's making me say all this... I don't *think* so, because that was not the angle I was coming at this from in the first place. I just see that average and that OPS number that is oh, so close to McCutchen's, and wonder why he's not even in the discussion just because of the ballpark he plays at. That seems like an unnecessary handicap. Numbers are numbers and he has to play away from Coors for 81 games...

I'm not going to type of a thesis on this...I'll just list some reasons:

1) McCutchen plays in a pitchers park and still put up better numbers. I don't care what you show me about the 'road' splits. What you have failed to show is that Cuddyer's HOME numbers were extremely improved over his road numbers.

2) McCutchen plays a premium position and plays it relatively well (CF) while putting up better offensive numbers.

3) McCutchen's WAR is around 8 while Cuddyer was a 2 (about the same as David Carpenter who gave up the homer to Uribe btw).

These are just a few of the reasons McCutchen is in a completely different league than Cuddyer.

I didn't mention it before because I am a Braves fan, but I would honestly put Freddie Freeman and Andrelton Simmons ahead of Cuddyer in terms of the MVP.

[mb625]

Re: 2013 Regular Season Awards

Cuddyer over Carpenter is laughable. If Carpenter play at Coors he'd hit .350+.

That statement is laughable, because that is simple speculation and there is no way you can say that definitively, yet you do so anyhow.

[cardinalbird5]

Re: 2013 Regular Season Awards

You're missing the point. You are completely neglecting positional adjustment when you are comparing Cuddyer to McCutchen or anyone else. I get it you are a Rockies fan and Cuddyer had a good year, but he does not belong in the MVP discussion.

He isn't even close, but I am not about to get into an argument over it.

My top 3 are:

McCutchen
Carpenter
Goldschmidt.

[mb625]

Re: 2013 Regular Season Awards

I'm not going to type of a thesis on this...I'll just list some reasons:

1) McCutchen plays in a pitchers park and still put up better numbers. I don't care what you show me about the 'road' splits. What you have failed to show is that Cuddyer's HOME numbers were extremely improved over his road numbers.

2) McCutchen plays a premium position and plays it relatively well (CF) while putting up better offensive numbers.

3) McCutchen's WAR is around 8 while Cuddyer was a 2 (about the same as David Carpenter who gave up the homer to Uribe btw).

These are just a few of the reasons McCutchen is in a completely different league than Cuddyer.

I didn't mention it before because I am a Braves fan, but I would honestly put Freddie Freeman and Andrelton Simmons ahead of Cuddyer in terms of the MVP.

1) That's fair. Here you go:

Cuddyer at home: .356/.414/.582/11/45
McCutchen at home: .337/.425/.537/9/46

That's why I brought out road numbers, because one could easily look at that and decry that saying "PNC is a pitcher's park, so Cuddyer being only slightly better proves that McCutchen is far superior," yet Cuddyer holds serve with road numbers (they're very even) and that is what puts the idea in my head that says at the plate, they're pretty much even.

2) This is where I give McCutchen the MVP award. He is so good defensively that he gets the edge over the field there.

3) WAR is beyond me and I've already demonstrated that I don't like it, so I won't address it. If you want to point at that as the decider, that's your prerogative and I'm completely fine with that.

And, to be frank, upon looking at the numbers, I'd put Freeman in the mix as well and probably toss Carpenter out. Possibly putting above Cuddyer (SLG and OPS trouble me, but other than that, HR and especially RBIs are big, but that could just be a good player/good team v. good player/bad team kind of thing). Freeman put up some good numbers without me noticing as I don't follow the NL nearly as well as the AL, (That could be part of this whole thing as well. TBH) and he wasn't being discussed either. So I just think that a big problem with WAR is that some good players simply don't get any recognition for the seasons they had.

[mb625]

Re: 2013 Regular Season Awards

You're missing the point. You are completely neglecting positional adjustment when you are comparing Cuddyer to McCutchen or anyone else. I get it you are a Rockies fan and Cuddyer had a good year, but he does not belong in the MVP discussion.

He isn't even close, but I am not about to get into an argument over it.

My top 3 are:

McCutchen
Carpenter
Goldschmidt.

I've been saying all along that McCutchen is a far superior defender and I agree that. Carpenter is an average defender at 2B. Being a former Second Baseman, I don't necessarily think that it's unfair to say that 2B isn't any more important than LF. So to me, Average 2B v. Below average LF is not a huge disparity. But that's just me, and perhaps my thinking is flawed.

And I'm not trying to argue with anyone here, and if I came off that way I apologize. Just trying to A) Generate some discussion and B) Let my opinions be known. No worries.

[55]

Re: 2013 Regular Season Awards

No love for Freddie Freeman!?

Not even close.

[1stpitchhacker]

Re: 2013 Regular Season Awards

^Lol whaaaaat?

Somewhere in the top ten but near the bottom of it