2013 Regular Season Awards

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  • DamnYanks2
    Hall Of Fame
    • Jun 2007
    • 20794

    #61
    Re: 2013 Regular Season Awards

    Originally posted by 1stpitchhacker
    You just proved my point.
    How did I prove your point, those war numbers you posted are accurate, and those are their defensive war numbers, not their overall.

    Comment

    • 1stpitchhacker
      Banned
      • Jul 2013
      • 193

      #62
      Re: 2013 Regular Season Awards

      Originally posted by DamnYanks2
      How did I prove your point, those war numbers you posted are accurate, and those are their defensive war numbers, not their overall.
      Check Cabrera's and Donaldson's WAR, that's how. And those are OVERALL, not defensive. In fact, how could you say in one sentence that Holliday and those guys are bad defenders and in another sentence say those numbers represent DEFENSIVE WAR. If that were the case, then wouldn't those guys be GOOD defenders?
      Last edited by 1stpitchhacker; 10-15-2013, 09:51 PM.

      Comment

      • DamnYanks2
        Hall Of Fame
        • Jun 2007
        • 20794

        #63
        Re: 2013 Regular Season Awards

        Originally posted by 1stpitchhacker
        Check Cabrera's and Donaldson's WAR, that's how. And those are OVERALL, not defensive. In fact, how could you say in one sentence that Holliday and those guys are bad defenders and in another sentence say those numbers represent DEFENSIVE WAR. If that were the case, then wouldn't those guys be GOOD defenders?
        What are you talking about? The numbers you posted are DWAR. Their overall is not -.

        For ex..

        Beltan's overall is a 2.0. His defensive war brings down his offensive war and gives him that number.

        Forgot to add baserunning, and position.
        Last edited by DamnYanks2; 10-15-2013, 10:04 PM.

        Comment

        • DamnYanks2
          Hall Of Fame
          • Jun 2007
          • 20794

          #64
          Re: 2013 Regular Season Awards

          Originally posted by 1stpitchhacker
          I see but I think what our Yankee friend was getting at was that in some cases people use WAR to backup their arguments and in others (Donaldson vs. Cabrera) they go back to the old conventional stats. I'm not a proponent of one or the other, but if you're gonna use WAR (not YOU specifically but people) then use it consistently or admit its flawed.

          Chase Headly WAR - 3.4
          Matt Holliday - 2.7
          Carlos Beltran - 2.4
          Allen Craig - 2.3
          Chris Johnson - 2.0

          Really?
          These are their defensive war numbers.

          Comment

          • 1stpitchhacker
            Banned
            • Jul 2013
            • 193

            #65
            Re: 2013 Regular Season Awards

            If Beltran's overall WAR is 2.0 and his defensive WAR is 2.4, that would mean he had terrible offensive numbers.

            Comment

            • 1stpitchhacker
              Banned
              • Jul 2013
              • 193

              #66
              Re: 2013 Regular Season Awards

              Originally posted by DamnYanks2
              These are their defensive war numbers.
              How can "terrible defenders" have a positive defensive WAR explain that to me.

              Comment

              • DamnYanks2
                Hall Of Fame
                • Jun 2007
                • 20794

                #67
                Re: 2013 Regular Season Awards

                Originally posted by 1stpitchhacker
                If Beltran's overall WAR is 2.0 and his defensive WAR is 2.4, that would mean he had terrible offensive numbers.
                No man, Beltran's OWAR was 3.2 which is above average, and definitely goes hand in hand with his 2013 statline. Had a decent season offensively.

                His defensive war was -1.5. Do you understand. So combine his offensive and defensive war with fielding position and baserunning and that gives him an overall of 2.4. Y

                Comment

                • jth1331
                  MVP
                  • Aug 2003
                  • 1060

                  #68
                  Re: 2013 Regular Season Awards

                  I don't know what the heck happened in this thread.
                  WAR is a decent component to value a player. I do think one thing that can tend to get overvalued is defensive WAR.
                  However, if anything, WAR is teaching us other things than batting average, homeruns and RBI's matter in determining how good a player is. For instance, look at Juan Gonzalez. Monster homerun and RBI totals, won MVP's. Both were not even close to be deserving.
                  7 National Championships
                  43 Conference Championships
                  152 All-Americans
                  5 Heisman Trophy Winners
                  #1 in weeks ranked #1 in AP Poll
                  #1 in weeks ranked top 5 in AP Poll
                  #1 in wins/winning percentage since 1946
                  Oklahoma Sooners, Boomer Sooner!

                  Comment

                  • 1stpitchhacker
                    Banned
                    • Jul 2013
                    • 193

                    #69
                    Re: 2013 Regular Season Awards

                    Originally posted by DamnYanks2
                    No man, Beltran's OWAR was 3.2 which is above average, and definitely goes hand in hand with his 2013 statline. Had a decent season offensively.

                    His defensive war was -1.5. Do you understand. So combine his offensive and defensive war with fielding position and baserunning and that gives him an overall of 2.4. Y
                    That's what I said. The 2.4 represents Beltran's overall WAR. YOU first said it represented his defensive WAR. Now you're saying it represents his overall WAR. Make a decision.

                    Comment

                    • DamnYanks2
                      Hall Of Fame
                      • Jun 2007
                      • 20794

                      #70
                      Re: 2013 Regular Season Awards

                      Originally posted by 1stpitchhacker
                      That's what I said. The 2.4 represents Beltran's overall WAR. YOU first said it represented his defensive WAR. Now you're saying it represents his overall WAR. Make a decision.
                      Where did you get those numbers, because I don't know where you got Beltran's?

                      Comment

                      • 1stpitchhacker
                        Banned
                        • Jul 2013
                        • 193

                        #71
                        Re: 2013 Regular Season Awards

                        Originally posted by jth1331
                        I don't know what the heck happened in this thread.
                        WAR is a decent component to value a player. I do think one thing that can tend to get overvalued is defensive WAR.
                        However, if anything, WAR is teaching us other things than batting average, homeruns and RBI's matter in determining how good a player is. For instance, look at Juan Gonzalez. Monster homerun and RBI totals, won MVP's. Both were not even close to be deserving.
                        Answer this: Did Josh Donaldson have better year than Miguel Cabrera?

                        Comment

                        • 1stpitchhacker
                          Banned
                          • Jul 2013
                          • 193

                          #72
                          Re: 2013 Regular Season Awards

                          Originally posted by DamnYanks2
                          Where did you get those numbers, because I don't know where you got Beltran's?
                          If you don't know where I got Beltran's WAR then why say that it's was his overall!?!

                          Comment

                          • DamnYanks2
                            Hall Of Fame
                            • Jun 2007
                            • 20794

                            #73
                            Re: 2013 Regular Season Awards

                            Originally posted by 1stpitchhacker
                            If you don't know where I got Beltran's WAR then why say that it's was his overall!?!
                            Because you confused the hell out of me. You put his OVERALL WAR IN PLACE OF HIS DEFENSIVE WAR, so that confused me. I'm guessing you got those numbers from espn.com or baseball reference, because that's what I was lookin at.

                            Comment

                            • 1stpitchhacker
                              Banned
                              • Jul 2013
                              • 193

                              #74
                              Re: 2013 Regular Season Awards

                              Originally posted by DamnYanks2
                              Because you confused the hell out of me. You put his OVERALL WAR IN PLACE OF HIS DEFENSIVE WAR, so that confused me. I'm guessing you got those numbers from espn.com or baseball reference, because that's what I was lookin at.
                              What do you mean IN PLACE OF? And I did get them from espn but they're relatively all the same from all WAR sources in terms of player rankings by WAR.

                              Comment

                              • DamnYanks2
                                Hall Of Fame
                                • Jun 2007
                                • 20794

                                #75
                                Re: 2013 Regular Season Awards

                                Originally posted by 1stpitchhacker
                                What do you mean IN PLACE OF? And I did get them from espn but they're relatively all the same from all WAR sources in terms of player rankings by WAR.
                                Because I'm a ****ing idiot that's why, I was looking at the wrong thing, not you.

                                Comment

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