2013 Regular Season Awards

[DamnYanks2]

Re: 2013 Regular Season Awards

I see but I think what our Yankee friend was getting at was that in some cases people use WAR to backup their arguments and in others (Donaldson vs. Cabrera) they go back to the old conventional stats. I'm not a proponent of one or the other, but if you're gonna use WAR (not YOU specifically but people) then use it consistently or admit its flawed.

Chase Headly WAR - 3.4
Matt Holliday - 2.7
Carlos Beltran - 2.4
Allen Craig - 2.3
Chris Johnson - 2.0

Really?

This is where I went wrong.

See those dash marks you put down? I thought they were negative signs LOL.

So I assumed those were their defensive war's, knowing off the top of my head that those guys you posted are all below average defenders for the most part.

Then I went to ESPN.com to look at what you were seeing, and I see where I went wrong.

[1stpitchhacker]

Re: 2013 Regular Season Awards

Haha I guess I can take partial blame for that. I can see how it looks like negative numbers.

[DamnYanks2]

Re: 2013 Regular Season Awards

Haha I guess I can take partial blame for that. I can see how it looks like negative numbers.

LMAO I'm sitting here, like how else can I explain this to him, he just doesn't understand what I'm saying. Then I realized my error, and had a hang my head in digsust moment for myself.

So those numbers you posted represent their overall war, so what were we arguing about again lol?

[1stpitchhacker]

Re: 2013 Regular Season Awards

I was just questioning the validity of WAR, and how so many people (not you) including baseball writers use it to back up their arguments in some cases and completely ignore it in others. I also can't wrap my head around how certain guys end up with a higher WAR total than others. To me, WAR is a great idea in theory, but I can't for the life of me see how it can be construed as an accurate evaluator of performance.

[DamnYanks2]

Re: 2013 Regular Season Awards

I was just questioning the validity of WAR, and how so many people (not you) including baseball writers use it to back up their arguments in some cases and completely ignore it in others. I also can't wrap my head around how certain guys end up with a higher WAR total than others. To me, WAR is a great idea in theory, but I can't for the life of me see how it can be construed as an accurate evaluator of performance.

Well that's understandable, I don't know if it's 100% correct, and their are sabermetrics I'm not completely in love with (UZR) But, I think war does a very good job of making out what that player is.

For example, Beltran's 2.4 overall war is a great model. His offensive war is above average, and his defensive war show's he was maybe just an average Of'er.

Lookin at the top guys on the War list, it looks pretty right don't you think?

It also does a tremendous job of bringing guys like Andreleton Simmons and Carlos Gomez to light for their defensive impact on the game.

BTW here's a sample of that list.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/war/leaders/_/type/offensive/year/2013

[DamnYanks2]

Re: 2013 Regular Season Awards

With Kershaw, it depends upon how much credit you assign him for his run prevention. I know that Fangraph's FIP-based WAR had Kershaw only slightly ahead of Matt Harvey even though Harvey threw 60 fewer innings than Kershaw. Kershaw's RA/9 WAR is in 2011 Verlander territory though.

Kershaw's ERA has historically outperformed his FIP by a modest amount, but he had a pretty good defense behind him this year and pitched against mediocre competition (the NL West).

McCutchen would get my vote, and IMO, he'll take home the hardware. I would be pretty surprised to see a 16-game winner win MVP.

Good points, but that 1.83 era for a whole season? That's elite, elite company right there, and of course that amazing war for a pitcher.

But, I'm ok with Andrew too, and he'll get it, I'm sure of it.

[1stpitchhacker]

Re: 2013 Regular Season Awards

Considering that Headley had a higher WAR than the guys I mentioned in the Beltran example (among others around the majors) and the fact that Josh Donaldson had a higher WAR than Miguel Cabrera and much higher than Chris Davis, I'm a little if not very skeptic about the formula.

For another, possibly even stranger example of WAR, check out the 2012 numbers of shortstops Ian Desmond, Jose Reyes, and Derek Jeter in comparison to Brendan Ryan's. Then check their baseball-reference WAR totals.

[rdnk]

Re: 2013 Regular Season Awards

This is exactly what I was saying. You guys use WAR to back up McCutchen as your NL MVP but in the AL Trout, Donaldson, Cano all have a better WAR then Cabrera and you use conventional stats to back him up

I was confused until I realized you all were using baseball reference. Nothing against the players, but when I see Manny Machado, Geraldo Parra and Andrelton Simmons as MVP finalists with the way they compute WAR, I might the alter formula slightly.

Thou shalt remember the .300/.400/.500 line and keep it holy. Only 4 players hit that line, and only two of them were on playoff teams: Cabrera and McCutchen (other two were Trout and Goldschmidt).

Cabrera's wRC+ of 192 was the best since Bonds in 2004. If you ignore the roid guys, it was the best since Jeff "Buff" Bagwell and Frank Thomas in 1994. Cabrera's hitting was on another planet this year.

[1stpitchhacker]

Re: 2013 Regular Season Awards

I was confused until I realized you all were using baseball reference. Nothing against the players, but when I see Manny Machado, Geraldo Parra and Andrelton Simmons as MVP finalists with the way they compute WAR, I might the alter formula slightly.

Thou shalt remember the .300/.400/.500 line and keep it holy. Only 4 players hit that line, and only two of them were on playoff teams: Cabrera and McCutchen (other two were Trout and Goldschmidt).

Cabrera's wRC+ of 192 was the best since Bonds in 2004. If you ignore the roid guys, it was the best since Jeff "Buff" Bagwell and Frank Thomas in 1994. Cabrera's hitting was on another planet this year.

Agree with the part about the slash line but what does the good fortune of being on a playoff team have to do with a player's value?

[rdnk]

Re: 2013 Regular Season Awards

Agree with the part about the slash line but what does the good fortune of being on a playoff team have to do with a player's value?

It doesn't, but that's how the MVP award is voted upon. It has almost always gone to the best player on a playoff team. Although Cabrera was the best overall hitter, Trout was the best overall offensive player and played solid D to boot. However, the Angels stinking up the joint really hurt him as far as this particular award goes.

In the past if the traditional MVP candidates all were pretty mediocre, a non playoff guy could have won it. I think that if there was no Cabrera, and the race was between Donaldson and Trout, they might have given the nod to Trout.

[areobee401]

Re: 2013 Regular Season Awards

John Farrell has been named 2013 American League Manager of the Year by The Sporting News.

[1stpitchhacker]

Re: 2013 Regular Season Awards

John Farrell has been named 2013 American League Manager of the Year by The Sporting News.

Francona had way less to work with talent wise, but big market bias right.

[DrJones]

Re: 2013 Regular Season Awards

Francona had way less to work with talent wise, but big market bias right.

Boston went from 69 to 97 wins in a tougher division. Farrell winning is completely defensible.

(Farrell pulling a Vince Carter on the Blue Jays remains completely indefensible, of course.)

[1stpitchhacker]

Re: 2013 Regular Season Awards

Boston went from 69 to 97 wins in a tougher division. Farrell winning is completely defensible.

(Farrell pulling a Vince Carter on the Blue Jays remains completely indefensible, of course.)

Absolutely it is but don't you think the 69 win season was an anomaly and the 97 win season is closer to what their talent level and payroll represents? I'm a bit biased as a Jays fan, I'll admit, but I think the 69 win tanking is a once in twenty years type thing for a team with that talent, and that helps Farrell.

[DamnYanks2]

Re: 2013 Regular Season Awards

Have no problem with Farrell winning it.