2013 Regular Season Awards

[DamnYanks2]

Re: 2013 Regular Season Awards

^Lol whaaaaat?

If you can justify an argument for putting him over the above named, I'd love to hear it.

[55]

Re: 2013 Regular Season Awards

Hanley Ramirez had a higher WAR than Freeman and he played in roughly half as many games.

Is a Freeman a solid player who had a good year? Absolutely. Is he a legitimate MVP candidate? Absolutely NOT.

[Chip Douglass]

Re: 2013 Regular Season Awards

My argument is who cares about his WAR? If someone can tell me how WAR is calculated I'd be pretty impressed. Solely on conventional stats, hes right there with any of these guys you mentioned no doubt

http://www.fangraphs.com/library/misc/war/

It's not a hidden secret.

I'm not sure how much credit you think Freeman deserves. He's a very good player who deserves top 10 MVP votes, but not much more than that.

[DamnYanks2]

Re: 2013 Regular Season Awards

I assume you WAR advocates believe that Josh Donaldson is more of an MVP Candidate than Miguel Cabrera?

No and not even close, if you want to go by conventional stats. Miggy has both of them beaten by a mile there too offensively. Freeman had a real nice year, took a big step forward and was a big component of that Braves offense, but your overrating him. Once, again provide a solid argument, if you don't wanna use WAR, fine. Conventional stats prove you wrong too.

[DamnYanks2]

Re: 2013 Regular Season Awards

I'm with you Chip, I would go with Kershaw has the NL MVP, His war is incredible for a pitcher(even though that's not a popular word around here right now). I wouldn't be upset with Mccutchen, but I'd go with Kershaw.

[DamnYanks2]

Re: 2013 Regular Season Awards

Miggy has both of who beaten?

Freeman and pretty much anyone you put up against him. I'm asking you flat out, what players should Freeman be ahead of? How can you justify him being over Mccutchen, Goldy, Kershaw or Carpenter?

[DamnYanks2]

Re: 2013 Regular Season Awards

To be clear I believe Miggy is clear cut the MVP of the AL. I was making a point against WAR when I mentioned Donaldson. I'm also not saying Freeman is my NL MVP i'm saying he deserves to be in the discussion. Which NL players have Freeman beat with conventional stats? Just on conventional stats I'd agree with Goldschmidts numbers being better, definitely not Cuddyer. McCutchen and Freemans #s are close

Ok, now were making sense. Cuddyer is absolutely a no, I agree his defense, and inflated Coor's stats knock him out.

Mccutchen is more valuable defensively, that's where he gets the huge leap. Freeman makes some good cases but he fall's short of three other guys imo.

Edit: Lee and Wainwright are more valuable then Freeman too imo.

[DamnYanks2]

Re: 2013 Regular Season Awards

I think Goldy had the best year out of the hitting candidates but even though its unfair I think he'll lose a lot of votes because his team didnt make the postseason. I'd have no problem giving it to Kershaw.

McCutchen .317/.404/.508 21HR 97R 84RBI
Freeman .319/.396/.501 23HR 89R 109RBI
Carpenter .318/.392/.481 11HR 126R 78RBI

Those three stat lines right there are why I say Freeman deserves to be in the discussion.

I would not be against Freeman over Carpenter. But, Mccutchen's speed and defense place him way over Freeman.

For me

Kershaw
Cutch
Goldy
Wainwright
Lee
Freeman
Carpenter.

[Chip Douglass]

Re: 2013 Regular Season Awards

He hit .319 (3rd NL) 23 HR 109 RBI (2nd-NL) and because his WAR isn't that good he's "not even close" I was told. Adrian Beltre has a 5.5 WAR is he not a MVP candidate either despite hitting .315 with 30 HR?

To be clear I believe Miggy is clear cut the MVP of the AL. I was making a point against WAR when I mentioned Donaldson. I'm also not saying Freeman is my NL MVP i'm saying he deserves to be in the discussion. Which NL players have Freeman beat with conventional stats? Just on conventional stats I'd agree with Goldschmidts numbers being better, definitely not Cuddyer. McCutchen and Freemans #s are close

I think Goldy had the best year out of the hitting candidates but even though its unfair I think he'll lose a lot of votes because his team didnt make the postseason. I'd have no problem giving it to Kershaw.

McCutchen .317/.404/.508 21HR 97R 84RBI
Freeman .319/.396/.501 23HR 89R 109RBI
Carpenter .318/.392/.481 11HR 126R 78RBI

Those three stat lines right there are why I say Freeman deserves to be in the discussion.

If the MVP award was the best hitter award, that would be a perfectly reasonable line of argument.

Those stat lines don't do justice to how good McCutchen is across the board: defense, baserunning, and hitting. That's what separates him from the other contenders among position players and makes him way more valuable than Freeman.

[Chip Douglass]

Re: 2013 Regular Season Awards

I'm with you Chip, I would go with Kershaw has the NL MVP, His war is incredible for a pitcher(even though that's not a popular word around here right now). I wouldn't be upset with Mccutchen, but I'd go with Kershaw.

With Kershaw, it depends upon how much credit you assign him for his run prevention. I know that Fangraph's FIP-based WAR had Kershaw only slightly ahead of Matt Harvey even though Harvey threw 60 fewer innings than Kershaw. Kershaw's RA/9 WAR is in 2011 Verlander territory though.

Kershaw's ERA has historically outperformed his FIP by a modest amount, but he had a pretty good defense behind him this year and pitched against mediocre competition (the NL West).

McCutchen would get my vote, and IMO, he'll take home the hardware. I would be pretty surprised to see a 16-game winner win MVP.

[1stpitchhacker]

Re: 2013 Regular Season Awards

Freeman and pretty much anyone you put up against him. I'm asking you flat out, what players should Freeman be ahead of? How can you justify him being over Mccutchen, Goldy, Kershaw or Carpenter?

You know Miggy can't beat out Freeman for the MVP right? In no way is that possible.

[DamnYanks2]

Re: 2013 Regular Season Awards

You know Miggy can't beat out Freeman for the MVP right? In no way is that possible.

We were speaking in hypotheticals in a made up baseball world.

[1stpitchhacker]

Re: 2013 Regular Season Awards

I see but I think what our Yankee friend was getting at was that in some cases people use WAR to backup their arguments and in others (Donaldson vs. Cabrera) they go back to the old conventional stats. I'm not a proponent of one or the other, but if you're gonna use WAR (not YOU specifically but people) then use it consistently or admit its flawed.

Chase Headly WAR - 3.4
Matt Holliday - 2.7
Carlos Beltran - 2.4
Allen Craig - 2.3
Chris Johnson - 2.0

Really?

[DamnYanks2]

Re: 2013 Regular Season Awards

I see but I think what our Yankee friend was getting at was that in some cases people conveniently use WAR to backup their arguments and in others (Donaldson vs. Cabrera) they go back to the old conventional stats. I'm not a proponent of one or the other, but if you're gonna use WAR (not YOU specifically but people) then use it consistently or admit its flawed.

Chase Headly WAR - 3.4
Matt Holliday - 2.7
Carlos Beltran - 2.4
Allen Craig - 2.3
Chris Johnson - 2.0

Really?

Cabrera destroys Donaldson in both coventional and sabermetrics, excluding defense.

Yes that is accurate because of their defense. Johnson and Holliday are not good defenders, and that hurts their overall value, as does does the rest of that group.

[1stpitchhacker]

Re: 2013 Regular Season Awards

Cabrera destroys Donaldson in both coventional and sabermetrics, excluding defense.

Yes that is accurate because of their defense. Johnson and Holliday are not good defenders, and that hurts their overall value, as does does the rest of that group.

You just proved my point.