MLB Off-Topic

[TripleCrown9]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

What I got from all that is that their bench coach in 2017 wasn't the mastermind that came up with the whole system, despite what Luhnow said.

He should be done for good, too. He straight up lied about his knowledge of any cheating.

[Blzer]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

Now this is where things get interesting. I've always wondered if this kind of thing existed, and furthermore if I could code something like this (which takes absolutely so much into account and can vary per pitcher, out, inning, etc.).

Let's say that, hypothetically, Vigoa designed an algorithm for sequencing gestures that would ultimately attempt to spit out results (I'm assuming this is for "runner on second base" stuff), and if that was the only thing he delivered to the team and was out of the picture thereafter, I wouldn't lay a finger on the guy. Developing a tool is never the problem at hand. The way you use it is absolutely everything.

Say his intent was so that they could look at footage from older games and they could log them that way, and try and see if it operates the same when they play them (until they change it once they think they know), etc... I still have no problem with that whatsoever. There is technology all over the game designed to get insight of your opponents and what they have done historically.

The problem is the use of it during live games and communicating it on-the-fly. If Vigoa has anything to do with introducing or utilizing that concept, he should absolutely be suspended. I do not think he should be banned though, and I especially do not think the Astros should fire him. If his algorithm (which is possibly easier to program than you'd think) is proprietary, you wouldn't want that to be given to other teams so easily who could scoop him up. Keep Codebreaker, and use it properly. Once other teams build their own, great. But don't give it away to somebody else unless the guy is no use to you outside of the way you were intending to use the program for live stuff.

My guess is he was plenty involved and should be reprimanded by the MLB temporarily, but again I have no qualms over the tool that was made. It's data-logging and analysis.

[Blzer]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

Also, full disclosure, I'm in the pre-alpha stages of coding a scouting report tool for my travel softball team this summer that can get other teams' statistical information (down to things like hitting tendencies). There is a popular website called GameChanger where you one electronically scorekeep a game, and people can register and join certain teams through invites to see their players' statistics (not as in-depth as my system will be). If you're not invited, you get limited access to information.

Note that I am not hacking. What I'm doing is using the "play by play" information that I get, and taking the PBP text strings and spitting them into rows and columns of data. If done robustly, this could even then tell the percentage of times they swing at a pitch on an 0-1 count. Of course, I'll never get information such as where the pitch was or what kind of pitch it was. That data isn't logged in any sort of way.

This means if I know there is a team I'm going to play the night before and if that team uses GameChanger, I can run the report and print it for the next day. I could have it in a binder or clipboard, shift my defense and call my pitching signs, etc.

Is this cheating? Nope. The way it was designed and its intent prevents this from being so. Would it be cheating if I hacked a team's GameChanger through their login credentials? Yes.

The points remain that there are a bunch of electronic scouting tools, and the one that was made for learning a team's signs is not in poor taste whatsoever. I actually applaud it. The issue is use of it in the game that is being played and delivering it to the dugout, batter, and/or baserunner. Build on it for the next game, but not the current one and especially not on-the-fly. If a catcher notices the runner on second doing his thing that communicates to the batter and he switches it up, either you also have that switch in your arsenal (in a binder in the dugout with other scouting bits) or you have to try and figure it out with your team the natural way.

Anyway, interestingly enough, I'm actually really okay with Codebreaker.

[TripleCrown9]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

So you're ok with blatant cheating, but not with extended nets?

Got it.

[Master Live 013]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

From the article:

But everything started with Codebreaker, and the use of it to steal signs continued into 2018—not just at home, but also on the road.

The intern, Derek Vigoa, currently the Astros’ senior manager for team operations, told investigators that he presumed Luhnow knew it would be used in games because that was “where the value would be,” according to the letter. But he said he didn’t recall whether he explicitly told Luhnow that Codebreaker would be used during games.

Koch-Weser told MLB that Luhnow would “giggle” at the title and appeared “excited” about it. Koch-Weser also said that Luhnow sometimes entered the Astros’ video room during road games and made comments such as, “You guys Codebreaking?”

I don't reprint the article in full because it is behind a paywall.

[Master Live 013]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

Vigoa needs to be fired because he knew the algorithm would be used in game in real time.

The whole article is a boatload of circumstantial evidence on Luhnow an whether he knew that the scheme was going on in game. Basically, since Manfred didn't found a 4k video of Luhnow talking about the scheme he got away.

Also, remember that all the information included in this WSJ article is already known by Manfred and was used to make his determination on punishment for the Astros. This is just someone leaking the details.

[Blzer]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

So you're ok with scouting, but not with obstructed fan experiences?

Got it.

Yes.

If you're questioning my morality on cheating, I have been more outspoken regarding the sign-stealing tactics the Astros used than anybody else here. I'm one small bit short of asking for their WS title to be stripped.

All I'm saying is this new information isn't damaging to what they did for me whatsoever, just the one person. And even then, because what was made is undamaging for myself, I don't think he should be banned, and it would be even worse if the Astros essentially gave him away to another team.

EDIT: And let's not forget that Codebreaker would likely only need to be used for runner on 2nd scenarios. Obviously that is still an impactful scenario, but Codebreaker isn't needed in any other situation than that.

Again, my imagination of "fair use" would be that they have the broadcast of the game and they sequence through those catcher signs in runner on 2nd situations, put them into Excel, and let it crunch what things are possible in that bit. If they did something like have cameras purposefully on the opponent's manager and use all of his facial touch signs to figure out when bunts, steals, hit-and-runs, pickoffs, pitchouts, and corner crashes were in play, yeah that is overzealous misuse as well.

[Master Live 013]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

Vigoa's punishment would come from the Astros' new front office since MLB said in their report:

Some lower-level Astros employees were aware of the rules violations or participated in the violations at the direction of others. I will defer to the Astros whether the conduct of these more junior employees merits discipline or other remedial action.

[Caulfield]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

sick & tired of Asstrogate. counting down T-Minus 12 days until the first ST game Rangers vs Royals (who share Surprise Stadium), also on that Friday, February 21, Tigers Twins and Red Sox vs. varius universities.

[Master Live 013]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

Tired: Astros-gate.

Wired: Red Sox-gate.


I'm hip with the kids.

[countryboy]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

What’s done is done. Players aren’t getting banned, their World Series title isn’t being stripped, let’s move on.

Ready for next Friday when Spring Training games start so hopefully we can find something new to talk about


Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

[Master Live 013]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

I would like to think that Manfred knows that the closest the Red Sox's report comes to the regular season the worse it is for MLB. Release it as soon as possible so that we can get this story behind us.

[Speedy]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

What’s done is done. Players aren’t getting banned, their World Series title isn’t being stripped, let’s move on.

Ready for next Friday when Spring Training games start so hopefully we can find something new to talk about


Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

Well, I think it does need to be addressed. It's an unfair advantage that baseball needs to eliminate somehow.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Operation Sports mobile app

[countryboy]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

Well, I think it does not yo be addressed. It's an unfair advantage that baseball needs to eliminate somehow.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Operation Sports mobile app

Never said it wasn’t cheating nor that it didn’t need to be addressed.

Just that I’m over listening to talking heads and fans discuss the issue. Let baseball figure it out and let’s move on and focus on the upcoming season


Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

[Blzer]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

Never said it wasn’t cheating nor that it didn’t need to be addressed.

Just that I’m over listening to talking heads and fans discuss the issue. Let baseball figure it out and let’s move on and focus on the upcoming season


Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

Skip the posts, then. This is new information and worth discussing. No one is bumping this out of thin air.

And to be crystal clear, I'm ready for the baseball season too. But what do I do, post in this thread saying that I'm ready for the baseball season? Pitchers and catchers haven't even reported yet.

Maybe it should have had its own thread the entire time, in which case you and others could unsubscribe from it.

Well, I think it does not yo be addressed. It's an unfair advantage that baseball needs to eliminate somehow.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Operation Sports mobile app

Codebreaker?

See, I really don't think that you can. Tell me exactly how this can be avoided. Teams can use Excel. Codebreaker to me is nothing more than a logging and processing tool. Just like computers can tell us about batting averages and hitter tendencies, that's what this thing is doing. There are some teams that are using algorithms to determine when their own player should have a day off, for crying out loud.

The unfairness would be if they are zoomed in on a catcher or coach, and feeding this information to the team in live scenarios. That is the problem at hand. Codebreaker, on the other hand, is not.

I need somebody to be specific as to why they believe that this is an unfair advantage of any kind. Is it because it is proprietary? That somebody from the inside developed it and it's not accessible to everybody else? I don't think that's enough. He developed an artificial intelligence, good for him. Otherwise, tell me how this is any different than a computer telling them that a batter swings at 32% of breaking balls below the strike zone in two-strike counts, because teams have that kind of information known to them.

And again, this can't exactly be stopped. The only way it can be is to tell teams they can't use computers and have to resort to primitive "pencil and paper" tactics only. What can be stopped are extra cameras and clubhouse monitors integrated for silly things like replay, as well as communication inside the dugout. They should also do away with monitors inside the dugout, no matter the amount of the delay. Plus no electronics inside the dugout.

I see it used positively as a scouting tool, and if given a couple of week's time and enough smarts as to know exactly what constitutes a possible sign, then I could use VBA to develop a similar thing.

For example, in high school we had a system where however many outs there were in the inning, we would add 1 to that number. The pitcher would look for the first sign after that number. If that number isn't ever thrown down, we would throw a curveball. If that number was thrown down last (and for the first time), it would be a pitchout. Given enough number sequences, Codebreaker can crunch that data and determine this... because it uses variables for things like number of outs, number of innings, booleans for number used at all, and what pitch type is assigned to which number as well.

This doesn't exactly seem hard, and if other teams haven't thought about it before they are going to hire programmers to try and do the same thing. And. It. Can't. Be. Stopped. Let's stop the live feeds, dugout electronics, and communication particulars.