Does anyone foresee a day where Maris will be in the HOF?

[glucklich]

Re: Does anyone foresee a day where Maris will be in the HOF?

No, he shouldn't be in. Last night on Sportscenter Tim Kurkjian (or however its spelled) made it seem like Maris is acknowleged by the hall for this historic season by saying "Maris's name is already all over the hall of fame and I think thats good enough," and I would have to agree. Acknowlege him for his terrific season, but don't induct him into the hall based soley on that one season.

Heres the thing that I find interesting about a particular argument about it being one season. A lot of people suggest that letting him in for one season opens the flood gates but it doesnt really. Given that the single season record for HRs is one of the most revered records in all of sports, why cant this be THE exception? The difference between Maris and Brady Anderson is that Maris broke the single season HR record and Anderson did not so theres no real basis for comparison in that regard.

[Mr. Bee]

Re: Does anyone foresee a day where Maris will be in the HOF?

Heres the thing that I find interesting about a particular argument about it being one season. A lot of people suggest that letting him in for one season opens the flood gates but it doesnt really. Given that the single season record for HRs is one of the most revered records in all of sports, why cant this be THE exception? The difference between Maris and Brady Anderson is that Maris broke the single season HR record and Anderson did not so theres no real basis for comparison in that regard.

But its not even standing today? Three different people have hit more?

If Ichiro retires tomorrow, does he go in for the hits?

[Mr. Bee]

Re: Does anyone foresee a day where Maris will be in the HOF?

Heres the thing that I find interesting about a particular argument about it being one season. A lot of people suggest that letting him in for one season opens the flood gates but it doesnt really. Given that the single season record for HRs is one of the most revered records in all of sports, why cant this be THE exception? The difference between Maris and Brady Anderson is that Maris broke the single season HR record and Anderson did not so theres no real basis for comparison in that regard.

But its not even standing today? Three different people have hit more?

If Ichiro retires tomorrow, does he go in for the hits?

[glucklich]

Re: Does anyone foresee a day where Maris will be in the HOF?

But its not even standing today? Three different people have hit more?

If Ichiro retires tomorrow, does he go in for the hits?

I already addressed what you said about Ichiro. Like I said, the HR record is one of the most prestigous records in all of sports, so no, there is no need to let Ichiro in on the basis of his hits record.

Like I said, at the outset, a lot of people have a growing affinitiy for Roger and his record of 61 because of performance enhancing drugs. Some still disavow that the record was ever broken for that reason and so in their minds 61 is still the record. Also, Maris' record stood longer than Ruths.

[glucklich]

Re: Does anyone foresee a day where Maris will be in the HOF?

But its not even standing today? Three different people have hit more?

If Ichiro retires tomorrow, does he go in for the hits?

I already addressed what you said about Ichiro. Like I said, the HR record is one of the most prestigous records in all of sports, so no, there is no need to let Ichiro in on the basis of his hits record.

Like I said, at the outset, a lot of people have a growing affinitiy for Roger and his record of 61 because of performance enhancing drugs. Some still disavow that the record was ever broken for that reason and so in their minds 61 is still the record. Also, Maris' record stood longer than Ruths.

[Mr. Bee]

Re: Does anyone foresee a day where Maris will be in the HOF?

I already addressed what you said about Ichiro. Like I said, the HR record is one of the most prestigous records in all of sports, so no, there is no need to let Ichiro in on the basis of his hits record.

Like I said, at the outset, a lot of people have a growing affinitiy for Roger and his record of 61 because of performance enhancing drugs. Some still disavow that the record was ever broken for that reason and so in their minds 61 is still the record. Also, Maris' record stood longer than Ruths.

Prestigous according to whom? The hits record stood a lot longer and I think its much more prestigous.

Some still also disavow that Maris ever broke Ruth's record, since he had more games to do it.

/devils advocate

[Mr. Bee]

Re: Does anyone foresee a day where Maris will be in the HOF?

I already addressed what you said about Ichiro. Like I said, the HR record is one of the most prestigous records in all of sports, so no, there is no need to let Ichiro in on the basis of his hits record.

Like I said, at the outset, a lot of people have a growing affinitiy for Roger and his record of 61 because of performance enhancing drugs. Some still disavow that the record was ever broken for that reason and so in their minds 61 is still the record. Also, Maris' record stood longer than Ruths.

Prestigous according to whom? The hits record stood a lot longer and I think its much more prestigous.

Some still also disavow that Maris ever broke Ruth's record, since he had more games to do it.

/devils advocate

[glucklich]

Re: Does anyone foresee a day where Maris will be in the HOF?

Prestigous according to whom? The hits record stood a lot longer and I think its much more prestigous.

Some still also disavow that Maris ever broke Ruth's record, since he had more games to do it.

/devils advocate

OK, I think its safe to say that the HR record is widely considered to be more prestigious. How many people even knew what the hits record was and who held it prior to Ichiro in comparison to the amount of people who knew about the HR record? Being prestigious and hard to break are two seperate issues. The 191 RBI record might be more difficult to break than the 61 HRs since it relies on others to get on base. But its not more prestigous than the HR record. I think its beneficial to look at why a record becomes prestigous or why a certain stat is emphasized. It seems the more prestigous the player who has the record, the more prestigous the record is. Look at Joe DiMaggios 56 game hitting streak for example. Its not terribly important but its an interesting record. Why is it interesting? Its because its Joe D's record. If Dale Long had this record people may know little of it.

OK, regarding having more games. This ratonale is erroneous. Games is not whats important. Its ABs! That is the stat that more accurately measures opportunity. So to asterik 61 on the basis of 8 more games is erroneous. Now, having said that ABs is something thats measurable, what cant be measured about 61 is that in 1961 the presss was coming into an age where they would tear the stars down, in contrast to Ruths era. Ruth was breaking his own record, Maris had to face the pitchers, the media and the ghost of Babe Ruth. This made it more difficult to hit 61 for Maris than it was for Ruth to hit 60.

[glucklich]

Re: Does anyone foresee a day where Maris will be in the HOF?

Prestigous according to whom? The hits record stood a lot longer and I think its much more prestigous.

Some still also disavow that Maris ever broke Ruth's record, since he had more games to do it.

/devils advocate

OK, I think its safe to say that the HR record is widely considered to be more prestigious. How many people even knew what the hits record was and who held it prior to Ichiro in comparison to the amount of people who knew about the HR record? Being prestigious and hard to break are two seperate issues. The 191 RBI record might be more difficult to break than the 61 HRs since it relies on others to get on base. But its not more prestigous than the HR record. I think its beneficial to look at why a record becomes prestigous or why a certain stat is emphasized. It seems the more prestigous the player who has the record, the more prestigous the record is. Look at Joe DiMaggios 56 game hitting streak for example. Its not terribly important but its an interesting record. Why is it interesting? Its because its Joe D's record. If Dale Long had this record people may know little of it.

OK, regarding having more games. This ratonale is erroneous. Games is not whats important. Its ABs! That is the stat that more accurately measures opportunity. So to asterik 61 on the basis of 8 more games is erroneous. Now, having said that ABs is something thats measurable, what cant be measured about 61 is that in 1961 the presss was coming into an age where they would tear the stars down, in contrast to Ruths era. Ruth was breaking his own record, Maris had to face the pitchers, the media and the ghost of Babe Ruth. This made it more difficult to hit 61 for Maris than it was for Ruth to hit 60.

[Mr. Bee]

Re: Does anyone foresee a day where Maris will be in the HOF?

OK, I think its safe to say that the HR record is widely considered to be more prestigious. How many people even knew what the hits record was and who held it prior to Ichiro in comparison to the amount of people who knew about the HR record? Being prestigious and hard to break are two seperate issues. The 191 RBI record might be more difficult to break than the 61 HRs since it relies on others to get on base. But its not more prestigous than the HR record. I think its beneficial to look at why a record becomes prestigous or why a certain stat is emphasized. It seems the more prestigous the player who has the record, the more prestigous the record is. Look at Joe DiMaggios 56 game hitting streak for example. Its not terribly important but its an interesting record. Why is it interesting? Its because its Joe D's record. If Dale Long had this record people may know little of it.

OK, regarding having more games. This ratonale is erroneous. Games is not whats important. Its ABs! That is the stat that more accurately measures opportunity. So to asterik 61 on the basis of 8 more games is erroneous. Now, having said that ABs is something thats measurable, what cant be measured about 61 is that in 1961 the presss was coming into an age where they would tear the stars down, in contrast to Ruths era. Ruth was breaking his own record, Maris had to face the pitchers, the media and the ghost of Babe Ruth. This made it more difficult to hit 61 for Maris than it was for Ruth to hit 60.

I'm sorry but I think most baseball fans knew who the all-time single-season hit leader was before Ichiro.

And the 56 game hitting streak, at least to me and most people I know, is much more of a holy grail than the 61 home runs. I dont care who did it, its the one record that can still be broken in this modern era that nobody will ever break. Its the most amazing record there is, but that's my opinion - much the same way you put lots of credence into the single season HR record.

And, of course you know, Maris took 50 more ABs to hit one more HR... I'm trying to figure out your rationale on that one.

I'm still trying to figure out if you understood what devils advocate meant

[Mr. Bee]

Re: Does anyone foresee a day where Maris will be in the HOF?

OK, I think its safe to say that the HR record is widely considered to be more prestigious. How many people even knew what the hits record was and who held it prior to Ichiro in comparison to the amount of people who knew about the HR record? Being prestigious and hard to break are two seperate issues. The 191 RBI record might be more difficult to break than the 61 HRs since it relies on others to get on base. But its not more prestigous than the HR record. I think its beneficial to look at why a record becomes prestigous or why a certain stat is emphasized. It seems the more prestigous the player who has the record, the more prestigous the record is. Look at Joe DiMaggios 56 game hitting streak for example. Its not terribly important but its an interesting record. Why is it interesting? Its because its Joe D's record. If Dale Long had this record people may know little of it.

OK, regarding having more games. This ratonale is erroneous. Games is not whats important. Its ABs! That is the stat that more accurately measures opportunity. So to asterik 61 on the basis of 8 more games is erroneous. Now, having said that ABs is something thats measurable, what cant be measured about 61 is that in 1961 the presss was coming into an age where they would tear the stars down, in contrast to Ruths era. Ruth was breaking his own record, Maris had to face the pitchers, the media and the ghost of Babe Ruth. This made it more difficult to hit 61 for Maris than it was for Ruth to hit 60.

I'm sorry but I think most baseball fans knew who the all-time single-season hit leader was before Ichiro.

And the 56 game hitting streak, at least to me and most people I know, is much more of a holy grail than the 61 home runs. I dont care who did it, its the one record that can still be broken in this modern era that nobody will ever break. Its the most amazing record there is, but that's my opinion - much the same way you put lots of credence into the single season HR record.

And, of course you know, Maris took 50 more ABs to hit one more HR... I'm trying to figure out your rationale on that one.

I'm still trying to figure out if you understood what devils advocate meant

[glucklich]

Re: Does anyone foresee a day where Maris will be in the HOF?

I'm sorry but I think most baseball fans knew who the all-time single-season hit leader was before Ichiro.

And the 56 game hitting streak, at least to me and most people I know, is much more of a holy grail than the 61 home runs. I dont care who did it, its the one record that can still be broken in this modern era that nobody will ever break. Its the most amazing record there is, but that's my opinion - much the same way you put lots of credence into the single season HR record.

And, of course you know, Maris took 50 more ABs to hit one more HR... I'm trying to figure out your rationale on that one.

I'm still trying to figure out if you understood what devils advocate meant

I glossed over the devils advocate part but in any case, I resonded.

Its interesting that you say, "I'm sorry but I think most baseball fans knew who the all-time single-season hit leader was before Ichiro." Its interesting you make such a distinction because there are many non-baseball fans per se, who could tell you the single season HR record.

The 56 game hitting streak is a novelty.

Ive already addressed that Maris having more opportunities to break the record (remember I called it a measurable?) is more than offset by the other issues he had to contend with which Ruth did not. With Ruth it was a physical feat, but with Maris 61 was both a physical and a psychological feat.

[glucklich]

Re: Does anyone foresee a day where Maris will be in the HOF?

I'm sorry but I think most baseball fans knew who the all-time single-season hit leader was before Ichiro.

And the 56 game hitting streak, at least to me and most people I know, is much more of a holy grail than the 61 home runs. I dont care who did it, its the one record that can still be broken in this modern era that nobody will ever break. Its the most amazing record there is, but that's my opinion - much the same way you put lots of credence into the single season HR record.

And, of course you know, Maris took 50 more ABs to hit one more HR... I'm trying to figure out your rationale on that one.

I'm still trying to figure out if you understood what devils advocate meant

I glossed over the devils advocate part but in any case, I resonded.

Its interesting that you say, "I'm sorry but I think most baseball fans knew who the all-time single-season hit leader was before Ichiro." Its interesting you make such a distinction because there are many non-baseball fans per se, who could tell you the single season HR record.

The 56 game hitting streak is a novelty.

Ive already addressed that Maris having more opportunities to break the record (remember I called it a measurable?) is more than offset by the other issues he had to contend with which Ruth did not. With Ruth it was a physical feat, but with Maris 61 was both a physical and a psychological feat.

[mgoblue]

Re: Does anyone foresee a day where Maris will be in the HOF?

IMO Maris got the recognition from being in the record book...any single season record doesn't make a Hall of Famer, that's based on longevity. Sure, there are some very sketchy guys in the MLB HOF (and the NFL, Namath got in on his personality, doesn't have HOF numbers), but that doesn't mean we should let borderline guys in because of that. Let's stem the tide now and not let guys who aren't qualified in.

[mgoblue]

Re: Does anyone foresee a day where Maris will be in the HOF?

IMO Maris got the recognition from being in the record book...any single season record doesn't make a Hall of Famer, that's based on longevity. Sure, there are some very sketchy guys in the MLB HOF (and the NFL, Namath got in on his personality, doesn't have HOF numbers), but that doesn't mean we should let borderline guys in because of that. Let's stem the tide now and not let guys who aren't qualified in.