"This one belongs to Reds fans" Official 2012 Cincinnati Reds

[Buckeyes_Doc]

Re: "This one belongs to Reds fans" Official 2012 Cincinnati Reds

Absolutely agree. I really thought we had it this year. NL is wide open.

The one positive is its another learning experience and this team is gonna be intact next year. We still have to address the elephant in the room: lead off hitter. And what to do with guys like Stubbs.

Yes the good news is the Reds will have a solid team heading into 2013. Pitching and the bullpen will still be great. All of our key hitters are locked up.

But the Reds have to find a solid leadoff hitter and improve the bench. No more guys like Valdez and Cairo who are basically automatic outs and do nothing for the club.

I'm not sure what to do with Stubbs. He is clearly not ready to be a leadoff hitter. I like him in CF and I think he will have decent production at the bottom of the lineup.

[st0rmb11]

Re: "This one belongs to Reds fans" Official 2012 Cincinnati Reds

I like our pitching staff, but I don't think it would hurt to seek a #3 or #4 starter, and another legit offensive threat. I really don't think anyone other than Phillips, Votto, & Bruce are consistent enough hitters. Ludwick is spotty, Rolen is nothing (maybe due to injuries). Frazier is good, so I'd like to see him in the every day line up. But, picking up one more offensive threat wouldn't hurt at all

[Buckeyes_Doc]

Re: "This one belongs to Reds fans" Official 2012 Cincinnati Reds

I like our pitching staff, but I don't think it would hurt to seek a #3 or #4 starter, and another legit offensive threat. I really don't think anyone other than Phillips, Votto, & Bruce are consistent enough hitters. Ludwick is spotty, Rolen is nothing (maybe due to injuries). Frazier is good, so I'd like to see him in the every day line up. But, picking up one more offensive threat wouldn't hurt at all

I'll be very surprised if Rolen doesn't retire. Frazier playing everyday, a healthy Votto, and a competent leadoff hitter should be plenty of offense. Add an improved bench and the Reds can be dangerous.

[SlimKibbles]

Re: "This one belongs to Reds fans" Official 2012 Cincinnati Reds

Yes the good news is the Reds will have a solid team heading into 2013. Pitching and the bullpen will still be great. All of our key hitters are locked up.

But the Reds have to find a solid leadoff hitter and improve the bench. No more guys like Valdez and Cairo who are basically automatic outs and do nothing for the club.

I'm not sure what to do with Stubbs. He is clearly not ready to be a leadoff hitter. I like him in CF and I think he will have decent production at the bottom of the lineup.

I totally agree but, if you keep Stubbs, where does that leadoff hitter play? CF seems most likely but what do you do with Stubbs? LF? What do you do with Ludwick? I think his contract is up or there is a player/club option for 2013. I can't remember. But do you bring him back? I thought he had a great year. Not completely convinced he's the guy I want hitting behind Votto especially when a big chunk of his stats came when Votto was out. You figure all of the other spots are set among Votto, DatDudeBP, Cozart, Frazier, Bruce, and Hanigan. It's a nice problem to have but it's difficult. I was really hoping to see Stubbs turn the corner this season. I wish he'd improve his plate-discipline. He can be the answer in CF but what we've seen so far may be all we'll get out of him. A guy that strikes out 150 times and has an OBP below .300 should be hitting nowhere near the top of the order. I love Cozart too but he should be hitting 8th.

[Buckeyes_Doc]

Re: "This one belongs to Reds fans" Official 2012 Cincinnati Reds

I totally agree but, if you keep Stubbs, where does that leadoff hitter play? CF seems most likely but what do you do with Stubbs? LF? What do you do with Ludwick? I think his contract is up or there is a player/club option for 2013. I can't remember. But do you bring him back? I thought he had a great year. Not completely convinced he's the guy I want hitting behind Votto especially when a big chunk of his stats came when Votto was out. You figure all of the other spots are set among Votto, DatDudeBP, Cozart, Frazier, Bruce, and Hanigan. It's a nice problem to have but it's difficult. I was really hoping to see Stubbs turn the corner this season. I wish he'd improve his plate-discipline. He can be the answer in CF but what we've seen so far may be all we'll get out of him. A guy that strikes out 150 times and has an OBP below .300 should be hitting nowhere near the top of the order. I love Cozart too but he should be hitting 8th.

Yeah I wasn't thinking of positions and where the leadoff hitter would play when I posted that. I would rather keep Ludwick than Stubbs. If Ludwick can bat a little more consistently he adds a lot to the offense and he is solid defensively. I think we've seen everything Stubbs has to offer. Great speed and defense, but a really bad hitter. It looks like the Reds will have to search for a new CF in the offseason.

I just have that gut-feeling that if Stubbs goes to another team he will have a breakout season.

[SlimKibbles]

Re: "This one belongs to Reds fans" Official 2012 Cincinnati Reds

...I just have that gut-feeling that if Stubbs goes to another team he will have a breakout season.

That's my biggest fear too. I can see it happening. Stubbs is 28. Just entered his prime. But if this is all the Reds will get from him at this stage, there isn't much reason to hang onto him. Let him be someone else's problem or project. The Reds need to go trade for a guy like Dexter Fowler or get Denard Span somehow. Fowler worries me a bit only because his home/away splits are solidly in favor of Coors. Could he put up similar numbers at GABP? Maybe. Still think they need to move Billy Hamilton to CF. He's can be future at that lead-off spot and would have ridiculous range roaming out there. DiDi Gregorius and Cozart can play SS.

[slickdtc]

I think if we keep Stubbs, he continues this. If we trade him, he flourishes. Or maybe just bounces around like an Austin Kearns. I just don't think he'll put it together here in Cincy.

I wouldn't mind keeping Ludwick. Him and Heisey should platoon. Or let Heisey start, we know what Stubbs gives us, give a chance to a guy like Heisey.

It's hard to find a legit lead off hitter. But we're running with the opposite extreme or putting guys who would be better served elsewhere there. It's a drain on the rest of the team.

[PhantomPain]

Re: "This one belongs to Reds fans" Official 2012 Cincinnati Reds

Personally I don't care how good Stubbs "should" be or "could" be because he has never proven to be a good hitter...ever. Not even an average hitter...ever. Stubbs can't hit the top of the lineup and he can't hit in the bottom of it. I mean the guy never hit over .277 in the minors which against minor league pitching tells you he is NOT a hitter.

I think the Reds need to do exactly this:

-Get rid of Stubbs (I don't care if you just waive him, he has got to go)
-Rolen retires which it looks like will be the case
-Get a good (not competent, but GOOD) leadoff hitter
-Sign Ludwick but as a bench/role player
-Sign Paul
-Get a good power hitting left fielder (35+ hr's)
-Get a number 4 / 5 starter (Leake could be used for trading and Arroyo had a very good year but throwing wiffle balls will only give him so much success. If we keep Leake though I wouldn't be upset)
-Hypnotize Bruce and make him never think while batting
-Tell Latos every time he gets mad at the ump he is IMMEDIATELY coming out of the game and will get a spanking and timeout for his childish behavior. Dude definitely has the tools to be a #1 starter but he has to control his emotions.

Bruce is probably the guy that aggravates me more than anyone. He is the one that "could" be one of the best hitters in baseball if he would ever figure it out. I don't think it would be impossible for him to have a line of .300/40/110 IF he could find a way to be consistent. He has to be one of the hottest/coldest hitters in all of baseball.

Chapman, to me, cannot be a starter. He would have to develop, at the least, one more pitch (changeup) that he can throw for strikes. But if he can't go 2-3 days in a row for 1 inning each night, I'm not sure how he could pitch 6-7 innings every 5 days.

They have a great nucleus and with the right pieces they can be a playoff team for several years to come. But they need to fill those voids.

[slickdtc]

I think they're in too deep with Chapman. I know guys do the SP to RP and back again, but Chapman's a whole different beast. Could he really ever be a SP, full-time? Do we need/want a Strausburg situation here?

I agree on Bruce. He's almost like Stubbs, it's all there, but it's rarely ALL there, if you know what I mean. At least he's shown he can be a slugger, and in a lineup with a guy like Votto whose just a great all around hitter, there's room for a slugger.

I do wonder, did these guys get to the Majors too soon? I know they've all tasted success at points but Bruce was supposed to be the best and I've never trusted him. Thank goodness for Votto. He gives me hope that we'll always have a chance.

[Buckeyes_Doc]

Re: "This one belongs to Reds fans" Official 2012 Cincinnati Reds

I think moving Chapman to a starter would be a mistake. Keep him as a closer and let him dominate there.

[PhantomPain]

Re: "This one belongs to Reds fans" Official 2012 Cincinnati Reds

I think they're in too deep with Chapman. I know guys do the SP to RP and back again, but Chapman's a whole different beast. Could he really ever be a SP, full-time? Do we need/want a Strausburg situation here?

I agree on Bruce. He's almost like Stubbs, it's all there, but it's rarely ALL there, if you know what I mean. At least he's shown he can be a slugger, and in a lineup with a guy like Votto whose just a great all around hitter, there's room for a slugger.

I do wonder, did these guys get to the Majors too soon? I know they've all tasted success at points but Bruce was supposed to be the best and I've never trusted him. Thank goodness for Votto. He gives me hope that we'll always have a chance.

I understand and agree about Bruce not always being there. He is consistently inconsistent. But I wholeheartedly disagree about Stubbs being in the same boat. Stubbs just simply has never been someone expected to be a good hitter. Look at his entire minor league career. Most players that do average in the MLB still dominated, or did really well, in the minors.

To me Stubbs is that guy that you look at and "think" he is a 5 tool player waiting to happen. Unfortunately that is exactly what Stubbs thinks too. He isn't that guy. Stubbs has an awful lot wrong with this approach, eye at the plate and swing to think he will ever be more than a .225 -.250 type hitter that shows pop when he isn't striking out that has good speed and is an above average defender. He will never be a top of the order type of guy...ever. He can't or won't bunt for some odd reason either.

I wouldn't have a problem with having Stubbs incredibly poor approach at the plate if he was the only one doing it. His defense is great to have. But when you have Bruce very inconsistent and Cozart batting out of position (did much better outside of leadoff) and a player like Rolen who is a shell of his former self (I like Rolen a lot, unfortunately it is time to hang it up. Wish we would have had him during his prime), you can't afford to have a 4th player not producing at the plate.

[redsrule]

Re: "This one belongs to Reds fans" Official 2012 Cincinnati Reds

I like our pitching staff, but I don't think it would hurt to seek a #3 or #4 starter, and another legit offensive threat. I really don't think anyone other than Phillips, Votto, & Bruce are consistent enough hitters. Ludwick is spotty, Rolen is nothing (maybe due to injuries). Frazier is good, so I'd like to see him in the every day line up. But, picking up one more offensive threat wouldn't hurt at all

They have 4 solid pitchers. Cueto is an ace, and both Latos & Bailey have shown ace stuff. Arroyo is extremely consistent and a second half pitcher.
If they don't get a center fielder, Heisey HAS to be given that job to lose. He might not have the range of Stubbs but he still has a solid glove.
I am also quite interested in the development of Hamilton, if he can make strides this year, he should be ready to come up next year with the 40 man rosters.
Cozart is obviously not a #2 hitter. that should be Phillips spot imo.

[lonewolf371]

Re: "This one belongs to Reds fans" Official 2012 Cincinnati Reds

Personally I don't care how good Stubbs "should" be or "could" be because he has never proven to be a good hitter...ever. Not even an average hitter...ever. Stubbs can't hit the top of the lineup and he can't hit in the bottom of it. I mean the guy never hit over .277 in the minors which against minor league pitching tells you he is NOT a hitter.

I think the Reds need to do exactly this:

-Get rid of Stubbs (I don't care if you just waive him, he has got to go)
-Rolen retires which it looks like will be the case
-Get a good (not competent, but GOOD) leadoff hitter
-Sign Ludwick but as a bench/role player
-Sign Paul
-Get a good power hitting left fielder (35+ hr's)
-Get a number 4 / 5 starter (Leake could be used for trading and Arroyo had a very good year but throwing wiffle balls will only give him so much success. If we keep Leake though I wouldn't be upset)
-Hypnotize Bruce and make him never think while batting
-Tell Latos every time he gets mad at the ump he is IMMEDIATELY coming out of the game and will get a spanking and timeout for his childish behavior. Dude definitely has the tools to be a #1 starter but he has to control his emotions.

Bruce is probably the guy that aggravates me more than anyone. He is the one that "could" be one of the best hitters in baseball if he would ever figure it out. I don't think it would be impossible for him to have a line of .300/40/110 IF he could find a way to be consistent. He has to be one of the hottest/coldest hitters in all of baseball.

Chapman, to me, cannot be a starter. He would have to develop, at the least, one more pitch (changeup) that he can throw for strikes. But if he can't go 2-3 days in a row for 1 inning each night, I'm not sure how he could pitch 6-7 innings every 5 days.

They have a great nucleus and with the right pieces they can be a playoff team for several years to come. But they need to fill those voids.

How can you like Bruce so much but be disgusted with Stubbs? They both have tons of potential and they both consistently fail to meet it. Both players have actually gotten worse every year since 2010. That makes you question the coaching a little bit.

[redsrule]

Re: "This one belongs to Reds fans" Official 2012 Cincinnati Reds

Brook Jacoby has to go. He is an awful hitting coach.

[PhantomPain]

Re: "This one belongs to Reds fans" Official 2012 Cincinnati Reds

How can you like Bruce so much but be disgusted with Stubbs? They both have tons of potential and they both consistently fail to meet it. Both players have actually gotten worse every year since 2010. That makes you question the coaching a little bit.

I don't like Bruce so much. I am incredibly aggravated with him. But the difference between him and Stubbs is night and day in terms of potential. But I am about a year away from giving up and just realizing he will never hit more than .250 -.265 with 30-35 home runs. Which isn't horrible, but he could be so much more. Bruce has more talent in his pinky toes than Stubbs has altogether. But I think his issue is head trash. He can't stop himself from over analyzing ever at bat, every pitch. When he is hot the first thing he says is he isn't thinking. When he is in a slump, which is way too often, he talks about thinking too much.

Like I said, I am just about done with thinking Bruce is going to figure it out. Probably 90% there. One more season of inconsistency, and I will find realize what I have know for a while.