So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

[RodionMaZ]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

So my advice to you is step up, D up, and slow the game down once you get the lead because in the NBA no lead is safe, and that is properly reflected in NBA 2K15.

You are missing the OP point. This thing is forced AUTOMATICALLY by in-game logic. Why should I adjust something when my opponent doesn't adapt even a bit?
I'm okay to "step up" if it is the opponent who adjusted his game, not the game itself gave him some "momentum" out of the blue.

[nova91]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

I'd argue it's rarer to see a wire to wire win than a game without a major swing (in the real NBA).

Hell I just watched the Cavs-Suns game today. Cleveland were up 30, and let Phoenix get it to 12. They were never threatened, but it's just a typical run teams get on.

When my Mavs got 23 up on GSW a few weeeks ago, not for a second did I think it was a winning lead.

Why you might not see wire to wire wins without swings in the real NBA? Because most teams that are up 20-30+ in the 3rd/4th quarters pull their starters and go into garbage time and change their play style so they try to maintain a lead and be less aggressive to not run the score up. That generally opens the door for the opponent to actually gain momentum by aggressive play, execution against a less superior opponent, and let up of the other team. Once a team pulls their starters in a blow out it is often quite difficult for them to spring back into form if they're reinserted into the game to try and salvage their lead.

All of these are adjustments by coach/team A and coach/team B that lead to either team losing or gaining momentum.

You can have none of these things happen in 2k and a crap play style of well contested long range jumpers, recklessly driving the lane on offense and consistently being out of position(guarding or rebounding), poorly timed shot contests and steal attempts on defense will start to become effective, while a play style of careful passes, running plays to get open shots and layups on offense and well contested shots, anticipating steals, and having superior rebounding position on defense will gradually lose its effectiveness.

More often than not it seems momentum is given to the CPU, not earned. I know if I want momentum, most of the time I have to earn it. Being arbitrarily given momentum because I'm down 20 is just as bad as having it arbitrarily taken away because I'm up 20.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S5 using tapatalk

[nova91]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

And thats my point. I don't mean to be disrespectfu to the OP, but I'm really sick of people who clearly don't watch basketball whining about "problems" with the game...because I see something like this happen at least once a week in the NBA and if you actually sat down and watched a game every now and again you would see how CRAZY the runs are in real life as well.

DEC 23, Sixers vs Heat Dwayne Wade DID play so health isn't an excuse...the virtually talentless Philadelphia 76ers rally after being down 23 points in the third...I watched this game live and it literally looked like someone had went into the settings and put the shooting sliders all the way up. The Heat kept turning the ball over and missed almost every shot they took...the worst team in the league the Sixers rallied and beat a healthy Heat team by 4 and I just remembered saying if this happened in 2K people would be crying "NOT SIM."

So my advice to you is step up, D up, and slow the game down once you get the lead because in the NBA no lead is safe, and that is properly reflected in NBA 2K15.

What happened to between the Heat and 6ers? The 6ers adjusted their play style(offensively and defensively) and the Heat started to panic and eventually fell apart; going away from what they had working, not adjusting to defense, taking shots they weren't taking before and rushing shots, exchanges/passes etc and defense became disjointed allowing the 6ers to pick them apart.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S5 using tapatalk

[The 24th Letter]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

A 'wire to wire' victory is a victory where you lead the entire game, so garbage time really has no bearing on that at all, and is certainly not the sole reason for momentum swings...Also, not every come back is based on some major strategic adjustment.....that's sports movie logic but not reality.

[Hustle Westbrook]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

When my opponents go on these ridiculous runs I make sure to call timeouts, slow the game down, make substitutions and run plays.

I understand that teams go on runs in the NBA that's because they make adjustments and a lot of the time when teams are getting blown out the bench comes in and that's when they make their runs.

When I'm playing some cheeser on online they're not making any adjustments at halftime. They'll deny ball and play everyone tight from start to finish.

My complaint is that I feel I have no control when other teams are going on runs. It's feels forced.

One of my theory's is that if you're hot in the 1st half the game recognizes that and tries to average out your shooting percentages by lowering them in the 2nd half.

I actually tested this out a few months back. In the 1st half I would sag off all perimeter players and completely lock down the paint and force my opponents to take 3s. I wouldn't manually switch on-ball to close out on shooters like I normally do. My opponents would go nuts from 3 in the 1st half and I would not make any adjustments. 2nd half comes and my opponents would continue to shoot 3s but they would not drop anymore.

Using this strategy I managed to go on a 15 game win-streak with the Knicks (while Carmelo was out of the lineup due to injury). Same story every game. Opponent goes crazy from 3 in the 1st half and goes dead cold in the 2nd. I eventually ran into a Thunder user who managed to kill me from 3 the entire game. Opponent went 6-10 from 3 with Roberson who has a 3 point rating in the 60s. I assume he mastered his release because Roberson has a 3 point rating in the 60s. Ended up losing the game by about 18.

Anyway, I challenge you guys to test out this theory to see if you guys get the same result.

[CaseIH]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

I've never really noticed this in my time with the game. It does seem like the computer tends to play a little better in the 3rd quarter, but at the same time, I've had plenty of games where it was I who went on a run in the 3rd quarter. I've had games where the other team made a huge comeback on me, and I've had games where I cruised to a 20+ point victory the whole way. I've never seen enough to think that 2K has some kind of comeback code that can be triggered.

It sounds to me like your opponent got hot, your shooting cooled off, and then you had a couple unlucky plays down the stretch. Sometimes that's basketball. One team knocks down bad shots while the other misses quality looks. One team throws a bad pass that somehow gets through, while the other team has a man wide open and the pass gets deflected by sheer luck. Happens in real life all the time.

Obviously, I didn't see the game, so I can't comment on things such as the floaty passes, Wade not engaging his defender in the post, etc. I didn't get to see their context. That stuff happens to every player in every game, but whether it happened to you more than usual during that stretch or you were just unlucky enough to have them happen at the wrong times, I don't know.

You nailed it, the NBA game is a game of runs, and no lead is all to safe most nights.


I don't play online, so the OP might very well have a point, I cant disagree with him, cause I have no idea how online games work.


There have been time though in offline games, where I have wondered what the heck just happened cause I will be playing good and have a big lead only to end up losing, and have wondered if this come back code has some truth to it,lol. Mostly Id say its just the person, or me in my case that gets to comfortable and starts doing htings out of character, which is realistic as you see it happen all the time in not only the NBA, but college ball as well.

[ksuttonjr76]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

And thats my point. I don't mean to be disrespectfu to the OP, but I'm really sick of people who clearly don't watch basketball whining about "problems" with the game...because I see something like this happen at least once a week in the NBA and if you actually sat down and watched a game every now and again you would see how CRAZY the runs are in real life as well.

DEC 23, Sixers vs Heat Dwayne Wade DID play so health isn't an excuse...the virtually talentless Philadelphia 76ers rally after being down 23 points in the third...I watched this game live and it literally looked like someone had went into the settings and put the shooting sliders all the way up. The Heat kept turning the ball over and missed almost every shot they took...the worst team in the league the Sixers rallied and beat a healthy Heat team by 4 and I just remembered saying if this happened in 2K people would be crying "NOT SIM."

So my advice to you is step up, D up, and slow the game down once you get the lead because in the NBA no lead is safe, and that is properly reflected in NBA 2K15.

Wrong. I've been watching and playing basketball before you was probably born. When teams go on a run, it's normally a result of hot shooting (not recklessly attacking the paint), offensive/defense execution got tighter, mental focus changed, or there was a strategy change.

In NBA 2K13 - 2K15, none of the above happens. If I'm mentally focused on destroying you and playing a very methodical game, my opponent shouldn't be rewarded with an artificial boost if you didn't earn it. NBA 2K11 was the last time where I could precisely tell how I won or lost a game and what changes I did or didn't make.

Now, I've finished games and been like "WTF just happened?". I have finished games and felt lucky for the win. I have finished games and don't have a prominent reason why I lost except for that ONE quarter where all chaos broke loose for non-basketball reasons. Win and losses are not that satisfying to me, because the game felt "wrong" at a certain point.

IMHO, the game hasn't been right from the moment they introduced badges into the game. 2KSports is asking the game software to do too many "under the hood" calculations for a sport that has way too variables at any given moment and no stoppage of play unless there's a foul or timeout. How do we know that the game doesn't glitch out and inadvertently "awards" a TEAM Deadeye for a short period of time? Microwave? Tenacious Rebounder? Eraser? When I see unexplained runs, it feels like it's the badge(s) taking over the game for a short extended amount of time.

[Taer]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

This year I have experienced all types of games: comeback victories and comeback defeats inspired by runs and wire-to-wire victories and defeats.

Prior to this year, I have never experienced wire-to-wire victories and only rarely (as in once a calendar year) wire-to-wire defeats.

The issue for me is not that comebacks happen, it is the frequency at which they happen. This year's version is better than in the past 5 years but the ratio of these different types of games still needs to be improved. 90% of all games do not end up being 2 point games with less than a minute to go. Except in 2k that is.

Why this happens is not perfectly known: the poster above thinks it has to do with badges. I happen to believe it still is mainly an issue of proper roster utilization. Is it coincidental that this year's 2k is better at roster utilization than prior years and that this year's 2k version has the best ratio of different game results? I would put forth that these two things are very strongly related.

2K needs ro keep working on the loose ball situations leading to non-scoring fouls, proper fatigue modeling and proper time-out use by the ai. All of these things have a correlation to whether we see a more true model or a more "fantasy" type of model of a season.

One issue I see that is not mentioned is the marked difference between regular season games and play-off games. The ai still treats every game as if it is game 7 of the NBA Championships. This is something that needs to be addressed in the future, one way or another.

Keep up the good work but acknowledge that there are still big steps needed to be taken to get things right.

I see Da_Czar working hard on playbooks and play-calling, I see Leftos working hard on roster logic. All of this is great and I really appreciate their hard work. It just has not been enough.

[Comduklakis]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

I see both sides. As a Pistons fan I watched them blow a ton of leads last year in the 3rd and 4th quarter. I've been watching basketball for 35 years and I recognize that runs happen, momentum shifts, there are even times when one team can't make a layup and the other can't miss.

That said, the trouble I have with 2k is the runs are too predictable. I've actually been tracking this as I try to run my franchise in Myleague. I consistently have 1st quarter and halftime leads. Consistently. There is the occasional 10-2 run now and then in the first half but generally it is back and forth and most runs are actually on my side.

Now we go to the third quarter and consistently (I'm talking at least 3/4 of the time) my opponent will outscore me by anywhere from 10-25 points in the 3rd quarter. Time and time again I will hold my opponent under 50 in the first half, even as low as 35-38ish and by the end of the 3rd quarter they will inevitably be around 75 or more points.

I understand runs and momentum changes. The problem is they always happen in the 3rd quarter. Rarely do I see it in the 4th. Rarely in the 2nd. Rarely do I see my opponent come out hot in the 1st and take a big lead. It is ALWAYS the 3rd quarter when they suddenly shoot 65 or 70% It is always the 3rd quarter when they suddenly start knocking down all their threes. It is always the 3rd quarter when they start grabbing a crazy amount of the shots they do miss on the offensive glass (despite often having Monroe and Drummond out there for the majority of that 3rd quarter).

I would be ok with this to a degree IF I was seeing a strategy shift. But I'm not. They simply start making the same threes they were missing in the 1st half. They simply start grabbing offensive rebounds when they weren't in the 1st half. My guys simply start missing the same moves we hit in the first half. They don't adjust to my defensive strategy by changing things up, they simply hit more shots and I hit less, combined with them killing me on the boards. That is frustrating. If it was a strategy thing, or changin up the gameplan and I somehow failed to adjust, then that's on me. But when it is literally almost every game, the same strategy as in the 1st half just simply working better because they magically hit their shots and I don't, then that is a problem.

I like runs and momentum shifts actually. IF they were more random and more a result of changing up strategy or personnel rather than some seemingly hard coded "let's even it up" gimmick.

[The 24th Letter]

So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

IMHO, the game hasn't been right from the moment they introduced badges into the game. 2KSports is asking the game software to do too many "under the hood" calculations for a sport that has way too variables at any given moment and no stoppage of play unless there's a foul or timeout. How do we know that the game doesn't glitch out and inadvertently "awards" a TEAM Deadeye for a short period of time? Microwave? Tenacious Rebounder? Eraser? When I see unexplained runs, it feels like it's the badge(s) taking over the game for a short extended amount of time.

This debate has been going on since 2K7 though, long before badges, signature skills even existed. I remember starting a thread exactly like this one...

[QNo]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

Most people like me who are annoyed by those runs are well aware that runs happen in NBA games all the time. The problem we have is that 2k15 is a competitive game. The way runs are implemented increases the randomness, which means that better players win less often than they would without such runs. This is bad design from a competitive POV and one of the few flaws of a marvelous game.

[Shady Mike]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

Wrong. I've been watching and playing basketball before you was probably born. When teams go on a run, it's normally a result of hot shooting (not recklessly attacking the paint), offensive/defense execution got tighter, mental focus changed, or there was a strategy change.

In NBA 2K13 - 2K15, none of the above happens. If I'm mentally focused on destroying you and playing a very methodical game, my opponent shouldn't be rewarded with an artificial boost if you didn't earn it. NBA 2K11 was the last time where I could precisely tell how I won or lost a game and what changes I did or didn't make.

Now, I've finished games and been like "WTF just happened?". I have finished games and felt lucky for the win. I have finished games and don't have a prominent reason why I lost except for that ONE quarter where all chaos broke loose for non-basketball reasons. Win and losses are not that satisfying to me, because the game felt "wrong" at a certain point.

IMHO, the game hasn't been right from the moment they introduced badges into the game. 2KSports is asking the game software to do too many "under the hood" calculations for a sport that has way too variables at any given moment and no stoppage of play unless there's a foul or timeout. How do we know that the game doesn't glitch out and inadvertently "awards" a TEAM Deadeye for a short period of time? Microwave? Tenacious Rebounder? Eraser? When I see unexplained runs, it feels like it's the badge(s) taking over the game for a short extended amount of time.

I know that with my slider set, and my roster I have none of these issues. With my set, every time down the court the CPU sets up and runs its offense to get good looks, sometimes they drop and sometimes they don't and sometimes (just like IRL random players will get hot and that is something I have to deal with by switching defenders or calling timeout)..so like I said before, slow the game down play good defense and do whatever you gotta do because HALF the community doesn't see this issue and I'm starting to think that this is the half that invested in decent sliders.

I don't know if you are talking about online or offline, but I will preface this and all statements after this by saying I don't play online so that is what it is. And if you went ONLINE expecting ANYTHING remotely similar to NBA basketball that was your first mistake. So obviously idk what an "artificial boost" is considering I'm playing against an A.I. and EVERYTHING it does is artificial...again strictly talking offline other than shot blocking, speed difference, and non shooting fouls this game plays a very good replication of NBA basketball.

[ksuttonjr76]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

I know that with my slider set, and my roster I have none of these issues. With my set, every time down the court the CPU sets up and runs its offense to get good looks, sometimes they drop and sometimes they don't and sometimes (just like IRL random players will get hot and that is something I have to deal with by switching defenders or calling timeout)..so like I said before, slow the game down play good defense and do whatever you gotta do because HALF the community doesn't see this issue and I'm starting to think that this is the half that invested in decent sliders.

I don't know if you are talking about online or offline, but I will preface this and all statements after this by saying I don't play online so that is what it is. And if you went ONLINE expecting ANYTHING remotely similar to NBA basketball that was your first mistake. So obviously idk what an "artificial boost" is considering I'm playing against an A.I. and EVERYTHING it does is artificial...again strictly talking offline other than shot blocking, speed difference, and non shooting fouls this game plays a very good replication of NBA basketball.

I'm mostly an online player. I've been playing online since NBA 2K4, because I like the head to head competition. I also play the My Player online modes after I get my player to 85ish (I like playing as "low" rated player). I've had my complaints for various reasons over the years, but for the most part...I like the NBA 2K series. I will give a NBA 2K12 a bye, because they clearly abandoned the previous game engine and tried to dapple with live ball physics. Since NBA 2K13, it's been about the offense, offense, offense. I understand that online games are rarely "sim", but I've have held my playing style and enjoyed playing defense for a many of years. Of late...the defense has been screwed over, and defensive - minded players are given less and less control when you compare it to the offense.

Honestly, I feel like a dying breed of a gamer. The gamer who uses practice mode to UNDERSTAND the game and figure out the best way to play with his favorite online team. Nowadays, it's about making it easy for players to pick up the controller and still be "competitive" with little to no basketball knowledge other than what they see on Sport Center highlights. Every time I play online, I play against players that I have no business losing to. I play against players that I would have beaten soundly on previous NBA 2K games and wouldn't have broken a sweat. Offline...NBA 2K is a GREAT game with a good set of sliders and roster tweaks. Online...it's a one way ticket for constant game rage and frustration.

The foundation blueprint for a great online experience, no matter what mode you play, is in NBA 2K11. Not too many people are going to argue against how good NBA 2K is offline, but online...it still needs some serious work.

[ForeverVersatile]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

This happens in real NBA too

It happens in real life but 2K tends to overdue it. Come backs usually happen in the NBA when the team with the lead stops playing the way they got the lead not magically bubbling the ball on every pass, missing point blank everything and no longer getting calls that damn near look like flagrant 2's.

[Smirkin Dirk]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

I just played Milwaukee.

I gave up 21 in the 5 mins (as Cleveland). Their guards were driving right at Love and they got about 8 offensive rebounds. SO I switched it up. I set my D to crash the defensive boards, play conservative on D and protect the paint. I brought in Garnett and my rookie Camby-lite rookie for rim protection. Suddenly I slowed them down and got back into it.

My main problem with 2K15 is that it's not letting me play through my backlog of games.