The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

[Dione2014]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

That might be my only complaint in this year's game against the AI. That and floaty skip passes, especially the ones that always hit the rim when you try to pass from corner to corner.

Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk

Yeah that's a terrible issue. You can stop it by holding down the pick button, but we shouldn't have to do that

[Hustle Westbrook]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

Great post. There are a lot of bad things going on with the AI. I think the biggest problem is that 2k has too much going on under the hood. They have been overambitious adding things to the game while also taking shortcuts and neglecting legacy issues. It's missing key basketball fundamentals.

I would love for them to spend one cycle just fixing and tuning, rather than adding and expanding, but it would never go over well because people would complain about how not enough has changed. Those on top at 2k would never allow for it either.

I am really hoping that the post release support is big this year. This is the first time I am actually regretting buying the game. As a strictly offline vs CPU guy, I just can't play it in it's current state.

Here are some highlights and brief comments from a game I just watched, CPU vs CPU. I do this every year when I get the game to see how the AI is. It is a game within a game for me to edit and tune sliders to max out the CPUs potential. I saw a couple of odd things and decided to start recording them, and after the game was over I ended up with 7 minutes worth of short clips of the AI just being plain awful. Trust me, I am not one of those guys who gets his kicks from hating on 2k. I have always loved this game, but I am losing my faith.

Just check this out. CPUvCPU on superstar default. This is all from the same game. Please forgive my terrible editing skills.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/5whUDJRHS7I" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Pathetic.

There's no way they could have actually played this game and thought this defense is acceptable. These are the same problems 2K16 had minus that new moving screen animation!

There's no way they could have tested this game for so many months and not have seen that animation! It's the most ridiculous thing I've seen. If releasing the game early means that the game is gonna be released with so many bugs and gameplay flaws then they need to just keep it for those extra weeks.

But hey at least we can throw double alley-oops now cause we were all asking for that, right?

[strawberryshortcake]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

Pathetic.

There's no way they could have actually played this game and thought this defense is acceptable. These are the same problems 2K16 had minus that new moving screen animation!

There's no way they could have tested this game for so many months and not have seen that animation! It's the most ridiculous thing I've seen. If releasing the game early means that the game is gonna be released with so many bugs and gameplay flaws then they need to just keep it for those extra weeks.

But hey at least we can throw double alley-oops now cause we were all asking for that, right?

Just wanted to quote anyone, since you're the last person to post, I'm going to quote you

Anyways, did a trial test run with Vni's simple setting.

This quarter from our online hof lg is everything I love about this game. I know it's pretty underwhelming to watch without audio and it's pretty slow tempo, but to me it's as real as a nba game has felt yet. It has that eastern conference game grind it out feel to it with Melo and Drummond doing their thing aswell.

starts at 1:23 if anyone feels like watching.

<iframe src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/raf5Kqlguv0" allowfullscreen="" width="560" height="315" frameborder="0"></iframe>

Did a preliminary test run with the above video setting to a certain extent. Just two parts, not everything. The important adjustments that I simply set was the following (this is on hall of fame, 12 minute quarters, broadcast camera, "play now" and "myleague"):

On-ball pressure = tight
Off-ball pressure = tight

Game is infinitely, infinitely better.

Still a trial run, but now I don't have to struggle with head scratching teammate behavior. My honeymoon phase with the game was that I absolutely must play on ball and off ball defense. Major reason was because your off-ball teammates were playing absolutely sketchy defense, not guarding their man, running away from their man giving up open shots.

I appreciated the constant off-ball challenge, thinking it was a challenge. But in reality, teammates were behaving worst than high school talent. Maybe that comes with the high school body implementation. Now that I think about it, I wouldn't even consider it high school IQ, it's simply not even basketball IQ the way 2k17 basketball players were leaving their assignments.

I actually flipped 2k16 back on and the setting there on default felt better than 2k17 post honeymoon phase's default setting. 2k16 players actually picked up their players properly. Didn't have to fiddle with my off-ball defenders much if any at all. Better, or more defensive awareness NBA level defense.

Despite enjoying 2k17 post honeymoon, the glaring offline teammate cpu (hall of fame default setting, 12 minute quarters, broadcast camera) head scratching defensive decisions was building with each hour. Tried out Vni's setting with "tight" on-ball and off-ball pressure and I'm back playing NBA2k17 without subconsciously constantly questioning my teammate's defense.

Again, only trial run with "tight" on-ball and off-ball pressure. We'll see how it holds up.

This is on hall of fame, 12 minute quarters, broadcast camera.

I honestly was going to retire 2k17 and go back to 2k16. Vni's setting changed my decision. Trial run still.

[GisherJohn24]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

AI can make some silly decisions, but anyone play football games lately?

[psydefx]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

Pathetic.

There's no way they could have actually played this game and thought this defense is acceptable. These are the same problems 2K16 had minus that new moving screen animation!

There's no way they could have tested this game for so many months and not have seen that animation! It's the most ridiculous thing I've seen. If releasing the game early means that the game is gonna be released with so many bugs and gameplay flaws then they need to just keep it for those extra weeks.

But hey at least we can throw double alley-oops now cause we were all asking for that, right?

oh, boy! yaaay!

[Smirkin Dirk]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

Sam Pham has just released a video.

He claims setting your D to 'Help and no rotation' works well and choosing switch all or switch guards (and NOT switch auto) helps.

I cant remember if we can set our CPU opponents up like this in ML. Ill have a look later.

Here is the video.

https://<iframe width="560" height="...reen></iframe>

[strawberryshortcake]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

EDIT: I am currently re-testing Sam Phams settings because I overlooked what could be an important aspect: Pre-Rotation needs to be set to NO for most. Pre-Rotation is only set to YES for big man.




Everything below is before my above edit.

Sam Pham has just released a video.

He claims setting your D to 'Help and no rotation' works well and choosing switch all or switch guards (and NOT switch auto) helps.

I cant remember if we can set our CPU opponents up like this in ML. Ill have a look later.

Here is the video.

<iframe src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/l9t4xCiON3M" allowfullscreen="" width="560" height="315" frameborder="0"></iframe>

People should give it a try, but just note that it doesn't "fix" the issues. I was praying, hoping that it would work, buI ran a test run and unfortunately it didn't fully work for me. The examples presented in his videos are great, but it didn't fully work for me.

I also just tested out [Sam Pham's video], at least I think I have the proper settings in place, and it just happened with Kevin Durant running from one side of the court to the other. I was using Curry. Durant decides to mysteriously come over to help. Was extremely excited to see a possible fix, but unfortunately, it didn't resolve it.

For whatever reason, it actually worked better if I kept everything on out of the box default setting and simply follow what Vni suggested, sort of. I simply kept off-ball pressure (tight) and on-ball pressure (tight). I played a full game and didn't get strange things like that happening, or at least I have yet to come across it. Still a trial and error period.

Did I miss something in Sam Pham's video.

<iframe src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/HF_mjvbwp3M" allowfullscreen="" width="560" height="315" frameborder="0"></iframe>


Vni's Video
<iframe src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/raf5Kqlguv0" allowfullscreen="" width="560" height="315" frameborder="0"></iframe>

[LorenzoDC]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

People should give it a try, but just note that it doesn't "fix" the issues. I was praying, hoping that it would work, buI ran a test run and unfortunately it didn't fully work for me. The examples presented in his videos are great, but it didn't fully work for me.

I wonder if the coach's defensive ratings act as a much stronger modifier on game play this year. I thought I recall some dev comment somewhere or other that coach ratings matter more this year.

If that's true then maybe the modifier effect is OP, especially for less strong defensive coaches, making your CPU teammates do insanely stupid things. It could also explain why the setting adjustments may work better when tested with some teams over others.

[Smirkin Dirk]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

Does anyone else suspect there are so many settings in now that perhaps some are in conflict?

[jfsolo]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

Does anyone else suspect there are so many settings in now that perhaps some are in conflict?

Yes, it seems that ironically in their attempt to be more complex and authentic, it has messed up many of the most fundamental aspects of defense.

[strawberryshortcake]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

EDIT: I am currently re-testing Sam Phams settings because I overlooked what could be an important aspect: Pre-Rotation needs to be set to NO for most. Pre-Rotation is only set to YES for big man.




Everything below is before my above edit.

Does anyone else suspect there are so many settings in now that perhaps some are in conflict?

Could very well be considering my response to LorenzoDC below.

I wonder if the coach's defensive ratings act as a much stronger modifier on game play this year. I thought I recall some dev comment somewhere or other that coach ratings matter more this year.

If that's true then maybe the modifier effect is OP, especially for less strong defensive coaches, making your CPU teammates do insanely stupid things. It could also explain why the setting adjustments may work better when tested with some teams over others.

Maybe maybe not. Who really knows.

I basically fiddled with two settings today, very briefly:
(1) Vni - worked. Disclaimer: only tested a few games.
(2) Sam Pham - didn't work. Disclaimer: only test one game. So could be an anomaly. Who knows.

But based on my experience fiddling with the settings today, Vni's advice worked far better (Vni has a few more settings, but I simply set off-ball pressure "tight" and on-ball pressure "tight"), and I didn't see or notice much of player's wandering aimlessly. Tested only a few games with Vni's setting, so still small sample size. However, immediately getting Sam Pham setting in play, Kevin Durant decided to wander aimlessly. Even though Sam Pham also has on-ball and off-ball pressure set to "tight," Sam Pham has a lot of adjustments entered.

If coach ratings mattered, I would figure even Vni's setting would be problematic, but it seems to work the best. More trial and error for both methods needed.

[Taer]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

Im on All-Star, ACE is on. In 16 never notice the AI defense getting stuck behind other players on the court leaving shooters wide open, or randomly leaving players open to go help or double team for no reason.

Since I played MyCareer a lot in 2k16, with player-locked playing, I had to rely on the ai more and saw more of it then the norm; that is most likely why I saw more issues then you.

This year it is magnified so even in the "normal" modes it is noticeable.

[alabamarob]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

In the prelude they called blocking fouls on the perimeter often to control perimeter contact. Dont see those fouls often on 17. If they called the bumping/blocking fouls on the perimeter that would help alot.

[DatIsraeliGuy]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

For someone who decided to pass on NBA 2k17 (after buying every game in the franchise since 2k8) simply because of the defensive AI being horrible, and the fact that defensive attributes mean absolutely nothing (except steal) as I can defend with James Harden like I do with Kawhi Leonard, this thread is like therapy.
Everything I wanted and needed to hear in order to keep my sanity is presented here lol. This thread, along with a Chris Smoove video, is what's going to stop me from buying 2k17 while knowing it's not what I want.

[Dione2014]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

Someone from another thread said that he did a test by putting all players for the 2 teams he was using help D IQ up to 99. I also did this after seeing his post. I'm running a scrimmage in 2kU using OKC vs the kings. Help is rotating smart now. I've only been playing for 5-10 minutes now but so far I've seen the help force lower percentage shots. I have the body up and on ball d sliders set to 0 so i can get in the paint when i want and they are forcing the either the jumper, tough layup, or the pull up.