On Ball Defense is HORRIBLE!!

[Nevertheles109]

Re: On Ball Defense is HORRIBLE!!

I think maybe there was a bit too much emphasis on the stone walling, but what I think could be done is kinda simple. Have the players strength attribute rating and size play bigger roll than it currently does on their ability to hold guys off. So for example, a player like Trae Young who's strength attribute is on the lower end of the spectrum, won't be holding much guys off. Especially if they have much higher strength attribute and on top of that are bigger than him. So lets look at a point guard match up example...lets say Trae Young (50 strength rating) is guarding Westbrook (75 strength rating). The big strength advantage Westbrook has means Young won't be able to hold him off (stonewall) and means Westbrook will kinda be able to bully him. He won't be able to just run him over, but his big strength attribute advantage would mean things like easy back downs in the post and higher chance of a blow by on drives to the rim. So basically it would work sort of like how mismatches (like a PG on a C/PF) currently do when there are big strength advantages/disadvantages between players, regardless of position.

Actually, I feel like 2K already does a really good job of replicating this. If I get Trae Young on me and I got Russ in a post up position, User or CPU, its BBQ Chicken Alert. The options are endless to score or draw a foul.

I agree with alabamarob; on-ball defense rating should facilitate how well the defender can lock down.

If 2K could somehow find the happy medium between 2K18's defense (too loose) and 2K19's, which is just a LITTLE too tight, we would be in for a really well balanced game in 2K20.

[WarMMA]

Re: On Ball Defense is HORRIBLE!!

Actually, I feel like 2K already does a really good job of replicating this. If I get Trae Young on me and I got Russ in a post up position, User or CPU, its BBQ Chicken Alert. The options are endless to score or draw a foul.

I agree with alabamarob; on-ball defense rating should facilitate how well the defender can lock down.

If 2K could somehow find the happy medium between 2K18's defense (too loose) and 2K19's, which is just a LITTLE too tight, we would be in for a really well balanced game in 2K20.

Yh I know...i've bbq'd Young with Russ in the post a few times lol. They have kinda done a good job at it, but its still not good enough. With what i'm talking about, it'll be problems for Young in post up and drive situations where he tries to crowd/smother. He smothers and the huge strength attribute advantage would give Russ the easy blow by. To try and keep Russ at bay he would have to give him space and respect the drive and it would still be bbq chicken cuz of Russ pull up game. But yh I think I like Rob's idea better too.

[alabamarob]

Re: On Ball Defense is HORRIBLE!!

It is OP and this is the first time that is has been WAY more OP than offense.

Czar stated the tech for offense is not up to par with the defense which is why its a problem so the game is to always look for the best balance... can't perfect it.

He did say that, and he is always honest. But there were some 2ks on last gen that on ball def right. I specifically remember 2k14 last gen the difference between using Lillard and Conley. Lillard would get blown by all gm and Conley would not. To see things from last gen get worst is frustrating even when the overall balance of the gm has improved.

[vannwolfhawk]

Re: On Ball Defense is HORRIBLE!!

The solution imo is within a few different key areas. Things I have tested and seen 1st hand in the past.

Number 1 is a multitude of attribute ratings that some have mentioned. From on ball defense, strength, as well as lateral quickness attribute ratings. I used all 3 to get a desired result and all worked together well. It’s not just 1. Strength is a good way too go about it, but like A-Robs point earlier as far as bigs strength ratings as opposed to guards its a problem unless factored in with on ball defense, lateral quickness, and speed & acceleration scales being scaled properly as well. The strength rating worked both ways though too including offensively. Guys like Lebron could use his higher strength per his position on offense to power past guys as he should. When going against bigger slower defenders he could beat them through speed and acceleration with defenders having lower scaled lateral quickness. You could use higher strength ratings for top defenders as well which would get you different animations to slow down a blow by. Each position has to be scaled properly though for that specific reason of 1:1 scenarios, but also keep in mind it (strength rating) will also effect the post up game if in that scenario as well.

Number 2 is just design decision. I think most would agree in a happy median between 18 and 19 would be good? The problem with 2k is they don’t realize sometimes the fix is within their rosters and tendency edits. Instead of fixing through those areas they go drastically another direction instead. I don’t think they or 95% of players even realize how bad the rosters and tendencies are and how much it effects the overall experience. I spend 99% of my time in roster or slider forums after release. The people in those threads who all play offline realize it’s a must to enjoy the game vs the CPU. The game is thoroughly tested in those threads and sections on this forum. Things are fixed. So a lot of times my gaming experience is completely different then others on this board in a drastic way. I realize the only solution for the online gamer is if 2k adopted this into their own rosters. Shoot, tendencies are horrible out of the box. Scales in some attributes need to be spread more. This is where it becomes tough when 2k is catering to multiple different types of players. The online, the offline, the my park, my player, etc... all experiencing completely different experiences. Some who find good slider sets don’t even see what those who don’t see. It has to be hard to decipher between what everyone is seeing and the feedback they are getting. All I heard at release was don’t change the game and listen to the casuals please 2k. People seemed happy. Keep in mind I just bought it recently so I missed out on the out of box game. Now the consensus seems to be all negative. I find it hard to believe the hard coding on ball defense hasn’t been hard coded from release til now though. Again, I think fix from where 18 was was right under their nose the whole time. No need to go in this direction imo.

Number 3 when hard coded like this year is where it can’t be fixed or adjusted through sliders as I posted earlier it’s a problem. Even with all the cpu defensive sliders at 0 (on ball, d awareness, body sensitivity, lateral quickness, etc all at 0) it has no effect of the result of on ball defense. Only fix is to give the ball handler acceleration a huge boost in sliders. That causes other issues unfortunately though..

It all worked in 18, but I know most don’t use custom rosters and/or play online. So, unfortunately this is only a fix for us offline guys (or it was for 18), and the online guys unless in a online league with custom rosters can not use and are stuck until 2k20 or a patch comes out. I think if they revisited 18’s defense, tried the above and tested scales in said areas and maybe made some small tweaks whether that be applying better right stick defense or whatever that we could definitely have more realistic 1:1 defense with freedom of movement yet balance between good and bad defenders. A lot of 2k issues can always be solved through ratings or tendencies. Again, that does the online gamer no good though. The hard coded issues do no one any good and fixing them leads to other issues in the long run when editing rosters or sliders unfortunately...

Just my .02...

[23]

Re: On Ball Defense is HORRIBLE!!

He did say that, and he is always honest. But there were some 2ks on last gen that on ball def right. I specifically remember 2k14 last gen the difference between using Lillard and Conley. Lillard would get blown by all gm and Conley would not. To see things from last gen get worst is frustrating even when the overall balance of the gm has improved.

People were done with 2K until 2K14 dropped and they said, and they specifically means Mike "we had a breakthrough".. and it was true.

The only thing the marketing heads did was advertise "we have blocks in the game again" because people complained to high heaven about blocking in the prior game. Go look it up..or look at this link and you might remember the screenshots they overused with LeBron and Iggy

https://www.justpushstart.com/2013/08/a-new-block-system-features-in-nba-2k14/

I remember shakedowncapo and I had to convince Sageinfinite to buy it because he was so disgusted with 2k13 that he had pretty much decided to skip it.

I remember vividly people insulting 2K13 to death, and bashing 2K12 which I thought was a nice follow up to the GOAT game at that time 2K11.

2K14 was definitely the best of the gen, I still have it on PC, but it was on old code that has been done over on a new system and added to up til this day...and back then we didnt even have all this park and crap that IMO has been the ruin of alot of things about the game.

[23]

Re: On Ball Defense is HORRIBLE!!

The solution imo is within a few different key areas. Things I have tested and seen 1st hand in the past.

Number 1 is a multitude of attribute ratings that some have mentioned. From on ball defense, strength, as well as lateral quickness attribute ratings. I used all 3 to get a desired result and all worked together well. It’s not just 1. Strength is a good way too go about it, but like A-Robs point earlier as far as bigs strength ratings as opposed to guards its a problem unless factored in with on ball defense, lateral quickness, and speed & acceleration scales being scaled properly as well. The strength rating worked both ways though too including offensively. Guys like Lebron could use his higher strength per his position on offense to power past guys as he should. When going against bigger slower defenders he could beat them through speed and acceleration with defenders having lower scaled lateral quickness. You could use higher strength ratings for top defenders as well which would get you different animations to slow down a blow by. Each position has to be scaled properly though for that specific reason of 1:1 scenarios, but also keep in mind it (strength rating) will also effect the post up game if in that scenario as well.

Number 2 is just design decision. I think most would agree in a happy median between 18 and 19 would be good? The problem with 2k is they don’t realize sometimes the fix is within their rosters and tendency edits. Instead of fixing through those areas they go drastically another direction instead. I don’t think they or 95% of players even realize how bad the rosters and tendencies are and how much it effects the overall experience. I spend 99% of my time in roster or slider forums after release. The people in those threads who all play offline realize it’s a must to enjoy the game vs the CPU. The game is thoroughly tested in those threads and sections on this forum. Things are fixed. So a lot of times my gaming experience is completely different then others on this board in a drastic way. I realize the only solution for the online gamer is if 2k adopted this into their own rosters. Shoot, tendencies are horrible out of the box. Scales in some attributes need to be spread more. This is where it becomes tough when 2k is catering to multiple different types of players. The online, the offline, the my park, my player, etc... all experiencing completely different experiences. Some who find good slider sets don’t even see what those who don’t see. It has to be hard to decipher between what everyone is seeing and the feedback they are getting. All I heard at release was don’t change the game and listen to the casuals please 2k. People seemed happy. Keep in mind I just bought it recently so I missed out on the out of box game. Now the consensus seems to be all negative. I find it hard to believe the hard coding on ball defense hasn’t been hard coded from release til now though. Again, I think fix from where 18 was was right under their nose the whole time. No need to go in this direction imo.

Number 3 when hard coded like this year is where it can’t be fixed or adjusted through sliders as I posted earlier it’s a problem. Even with all the cpu defensive sliders at 0 (on ball, d awareness, body sensitivity, lateral quickness, etc all at 0) it has no effect of the result of on ball defense. Only fix is to give the ball handler acceleration a huge boost in sliders. That causes other issues unfortunately though..

It all worked in 18, but I know most don’t use custom rosters and/or play online. So, unfortunately this is only a fix for us offline guys (or it was for 18), and the online guys unless in a online league with custom rosters can not use and are stuck until 2k20 or a patch comes out. I think if they revisited 18’s defense, tried the above and tested scales in said areas and maybe made some small tweaks whether that be applying better right stick defense or whatever that we could definitely have more realistic 1:1 defense with freedom of movement yet balance between good and bad defenders. A lot of 2k issues can always be solved through ratings or tendencies. Again, that does the online gamer no good though. The hard coded issues do no one any good and fixing them leads to other issues in the long run when editing rosters or sliders unfortunately...

Just my .02...

Tendency roster thing seems like a big deal, but when they pull up a list of complaints, that's so low on the totem pole with the least amount of complaints that its definitely not a priority, and the one time Czar did get them in the hands of someone, it didn't work out... one reason is when they were done, any new build or update, they basically need to be done over and over again because those builds are all like different games sometimes for better or worse (this is pre-release)

I do think they need a community liason in the worst way because there needs to be a bridge between consumer and developer when it comes to understanding how this all fits together.

[vannwolfhawk]

Re: On Ball Defense is HORRIBLE!!

Tendency roster thing seems like a big deal, but when they pull up a list of complaints, that's so low on the totem pole with the least amount of complaints that its definitely not a priority, and the one time Czar did get them in the hands of someone, it didn't work out... one reason is when they were done, any new build or update, they basically need to be done over and over again because those builds are all like different games sometimes for better or worse (this is pre-release)

I do think they need a community liason in the worst way because there needs to be a bridge between consumer and developer when it comes to understanding how this all fits together.

That’s the funny thing though. If you are in the roster forums you can’t miss it how bad they are. Then if you are in the roster correction thread it’s again all over. To be honest we are the minority and most people don’t understand the difference it has in all modes of the game. I think most people just assume these things (like playbooks) are done well and right by the developers.

You are right though it’s very minimal with complaints. But so was the overuse of mismatch post ups being called from 18 but this year it got traction and was complained about. I spotted that issue in 1st 2 weeks of testing playbooks last year.

The other issue is when people bring up legitimate issues with the game it gets dismissed and chastised on the boards. Everyone wants to believe the game they are playing is the greatest ever and no one likes to hear the negative stuff. But stating the issues gets it out there so it can be improved. I loved 18 after edited but it still had its flaws and needed fixes. No game will be perfect. But the game I got as opposed to others is staggering because I’m in the minority and use custom rosters and edit the game.

I’d bet if every 2k player in the world tried a good custom roster with tendencies properly done, real playbooks with broken plays gone, proper player signatures in all areas, there would be an uprising for fixes! Lol I’d even assume playing my player would be more enjoyable (I’ve never played mode) if the cpu teammates played like themselves...

All wishful thinking but man it’s a HUGE deal for realism. They give us and themselves the tools. Just don’t understand not using them besides time issue but need to hire a guy to do it full time imo. Why doesn’t stauffer do them?

Lastly, why would tendencies need to change after every update? That makes no sense at all?! How a player plays is how they play. That’s what tendencies are. If thresholds change there is a thing called global editor for a quick fix.

[vannwolfhawk]

Re: On Ball Defense is HORRIBLE!!

and the one time Czar did get them in the hands of someone, it didn't work out...

At least everyone knows who’s in charge of player tendencies now. Let the Stauffer complaints finally stop! Lol

[23]

Re: On Ball Defense is HORRIBLE!!

That’s the funny thing though. If you are in the roster forums you can’t miss it how bad they are. Then if you are in the roster correction thread it’s again all over. To be honest we are the minority and most people don’t understand the difference it has in all modes of the game. I think most people just assume these things (like playbooks) are done well and right by the developers.

You are right though it’s very minimal with complaints. But so was the overuse of mismatch post ups being called from 18 but this year it got traction and was complained about. I spotted that issue in 1st 2 weeks of testing playbooks last year.

The other issue is when people bring up legitimate issues with the game it gets dismissed and chastised on the boards. Everyone wants to believe the game they are playing is the greatest ever and no one likes to hear the negative stuff. But stating the issues gets it out there so it can be improved. I loved 18 after edited but it still had its flaws and needed fixes. No game will be perfect. But the game I got as opposed to others is staggering because I’m in the minority and use custom rosters and edit the game.

I’d bet if every 2k player in the world tried a good custom roster with tendencies properly done, real playbooks with broken plays gone, proper player signatures in all areas, there would be an uprising for fixes! Lol I’d even assume playing my player would be more enjoyable (I’ve never played mode) if the cpu teammates played like themselves...

All wishful thinking but man it’s a HUGE deal for realism. They give us and themselves the tools. Just don’t understand not using them besides time issue but need to hire a guy to do it full time imo. Why doesn’t stauffer do them?

Lastly, why would tendencies need to change after every update? That makes no sense at all?! How a player plays is how they play. That’s what tendencies are. If thresholds change there is a thing called global editor for a quick fix.

These forums don't do as much as it used to. Honestly the complaints drown out the legit stuff anyway

...but online in general, forums, twitter, direct feedback, reddit.... when adding it all up, tendencies are nowhere near the top of what they hear.

The updates or new builds are different games, code changes, and stuff can be working or broken at a given moment someone submits something.

The dev side is tedious beyond...but like some of us in here agreed to start this simnation thing and when Czar gave us a date to submit our input by (while theyre working on their production meetings), most of the guys disappeared.

Just like i started the direct shot feedback thread and people came in not to give input but to complain.

Its blown opportunities like that which hurt us guys.

I dont know who heads rosters but if it was me i'd try to establish a relationship with that person then try to see if they would implement my said tendencies edits sometime post release.

As im learning its never as simple as it seems on the surface. I wish it was because i have my own list too

[23]

Re: On Ball Defense is HORRIBLE!!

At least everyone knows who’s in charge of player tendencies now. Let the Stauffer complaints finally stop! Lol

Well no we don't. That one year was a fail, unfortunately. I saw you and others on here complaining about them. It was comical too because they knew nwo it was on them if it ended in a fail.

[vannwolfhawk]

Re: On Ball Defense is HORRIBLE!!

These forums don't do as much as it used to. Honestly the complaints drown out the legit stuff anyway

...but online in general, forums, twitter, direct feedback, reddit.... when adding it all up, tendencies are nowhere near the top of what they hear.

The updates or new builds are different games, code changes, and stuff can be working or broken at a given moment someone submits something.

The dev side is tedious beyond...but like some of us in here agreed to start this simnation thing and when Czar gave us a date to submit our input by (while theyre working on their production meetings), most of the guys disappeared.

Just like i started the direct shot feedback thread and people came in not to give input but to complain.

Its blown opportunities like that which hurt us guys.

I dont know who heads rosters but if it was me i'd try to establish a relationship with that person then try to see if they would implement my said tendencies edits sometime post release.

As im learning its never as simple as it seems on the surface. I wish it was because i have my own list too

Oh I completely know I’m in minority. The offline gamer is in majority. The hardcore roster guys or anyone that looks at them in detail can see the discrepancy. I just saw a post today from Rashidi after he saw the 96 Bulls tendencies and Ron Harper has 97 iso tendency. Just a funny example. I could have a list of 100 guys easy (all in roster section) who are offline gamers who are begging for it. But you are right it’s minimal in grand scheme of complaints. Like I said though if everyone tried the base 2k roster and tried a edited custom roster done properly I guarantee that would change. You can’t argue the differences. It’s night and day.

As far as different games go. Maybe different thresholds. But I never had any different game bcus of tendencies last year after any patch. Nor did anyone in simworld rosters, etc. that being said sliders always needed to be tweaked yes but never tendencies. That being said and again like I said before is that if a threshold gets changed and tendency scales done right it’s and easy edit through global editor. +5 or -5. I don’t buy into we don’t do it because it changes the game. They haven’t been touched in forever. Why do you think people use custom rosters. It can always be open to interpretation though and people will complain about attributes, ratings, and tendencies no matter what. But most are glaringly off. Or thresholds off. But it’s after tons of testing and watching cpu vs cpu games. Once it’s done properly it’s easy to scale up or down for whole league. But as is now it’s never even touched. Sometimes (a lot of times) it can fix a game flaw... I could go on and on...

But if it’s sim basketball and simnation we are preaching and to get realism and sim at the forefront this is an area they should look at 1st and foremost. There are nba stats for things like bank shot usage, stepback jumpers, contested jumpers, etc. not hard to look at stats and realize what’s off.

Should we talk about playbooks now? Lol joke! We are already way off subject from the thread title...

[vannwolfhawk]

Re: On Ball Defense is HORRIBLE!!

Well no we don't. That one year was a fail, unfortunately. I saw you and others on here complaining about them. It was comical too because they knew nwo it was on them if it ended in a fail.

And if it ended in a major success?! All you have to do is read the threads of people who used the rosters with tendency edits to see the outcome! It ain’t rocket science... they gave us the tools and they work as intended. It’s not like madden where you edit something and they don’t work. 2k killed it with tendencies! Now if they would only use them...

[23]

Re: On Ball Defense is HORRIBLE!!

Oh I completely know I’m in minority. The offline gamer is in majority. The hardcore roster guys or anyone that looks at them in detail can see the discrepancy. I just saw a post today from Rashidi after he saw the 96 Bulls tendencies and Ron Harper has 97 iso tendency. Just a funny example. I could have a list of 100 guys easy (all in roster section) who are offline gamers who are begging for it. But you are right it’s minimal in grand scheme of complaints. Like I said though if everyone tried the base 2k roster and tried a edited custom roster done properly I guarantee that would change. You can’t argue the differences. It’s night and day.

As far as different games go. Maybe different thresholds. But I never had any different game bcus of tendencies last year after any patch. Nor did anyone in simworld rosters, etc. that being said sliders always needed to be tweaked yes but never tendencies. That being said and again like I said before is that if a threshold gets changed and tendency scales done right it’s and easy edit through global editor. +5 or -5. I don’t buy into we don’t do it because it changes the game. They haven’t been touched in forever. Why do you think people use custom rosters. It can always be open to interpretation though and people will complain about attributes, ratings, and tendencies no matter what. But most are glaringly off. Or thresholds off. But it’s after tons of testing and watching cpu vs cpu games. Once it’s done properly it’s easy to scale up or down for whole league. But as is now it’s never even touched. Sometimes (a lot of times) it can fix a game flaw... I could go on and on...

But if it’s sim basketball and simnation we are preaching and to get realism and sim at the forefront this is an area they should look at 1st and foremost. There are nba stats for things like bank shot usage, stepback jumpers, contested jumpers, etc. not hard to look at stats and realize what’s off.

Should we talk about playbooks now? Lol joke! We are already way off subject from the thread title...

I dont think there is enough time to do that in an 8-9 month cycle.

Thats my biggest issue with people who cry for patches within 2 weeks. Who's testing that stuff in that short of a time?

They don't understand how creating, tweaking and changing software works.

[vannwolfhawk]

Re: On Ball Defense is HORRIBLE!!

I dont think there is enough time to do that in an 8-9 month cycle.

Thats my biggest issue with people who cry for patches within 2 weeks. Who's testing that stuff in that short of a time?.

I think they had it right hiring a guy. That’s a full time job no doubt! Czar can’t do all he does and do every player tendency. It’s imposd. Testing, watching games, finding thresholds. But you do that 1 year and lock in everything off stats. Then every year after is just small tweaks with players evolving game and changing the rookies. It’s just getting them right as far as the scales go 1st and foremost and accurate to how they play irl. For example giannis should have 100 in spin finish tendency. That isn’t going to change. It’s his go to move! I just watched him yesterday and he used the spin move at least 10x. Just an example of 1 of 60-70 tendency edits to make players stand apart from 1 another. Once all scaled and every player is done THEN test again on release and make tweaks where needed. It doesn’t depend on a patch or anything. Players play like players. After a patch is what sliders are for.

But they had it right. Hire a tendency guy. No different then a roster guy. Could you imagine not having a roster guy in 2k? Same difference to me with no tendency guy. Another good example is Brook Lopez this year with Bucks. His play style and the Bucks play style have him stretching floor and shooting way more 3’s then he did with Lakers. Lakers had him in the post last year as well. Obviously his 3 point tendencies and post up tendencies need to be changed from last year to this year to capture his style as well as the Bucks style. Same difference with playbooks post release right?

But we are minority. This effects 25% tops of all 2k players whether they know it or not? Idk hopefully 1 day they try it and it picks up traction. The more people realize it in how bad it is it will 1 day warrant a change. I should start a thread pointing all these out and don’t get me started on the classic player tendencies... lol

[ksuttonjr76]

Re: On Ball Defense is HORRIBLE!!

I think they had it right hiring a guy. That’s a full time job no doubt! Czar can’t do all he does and do every player tendency. It’s imposd. Testing, watching games, finding thresholds. But you do that 1 year and lock in everything off stats. Then every year after is just small tweaks with players evolving game and changing the rookies. It’s just getting them right as far as the scales go 1st and foremost and accurate to how they play irl. For example giannis should have 100 in spin finish tendency. That isn’t going to change. It’s his go to move! I just watched him yesterday and he used the spin move at least 10x. Just an example of 1 of 60-70 tendency edits to make players stand apart from 1 another. Once all scaled and every player is done THEN test again on release and make tweaks where needed. It doesn’t depend on a patch or anything. Players play like players. After a patch is what sliders are for.

But they had it right. Hire a tendency guy. No different then a roster guy. Could you imagine not having a roster guy in 2k? Same difference to me with no tendency guy. Another good example is Brook Lopez this year with Bucks. His play style and the Bucks play style have him stretching floor and shooting way more 3’s then he did with Lakers. Lakers had him in the post last year as well. Obviously his 3 point tendencies and post up tendencies need to be changed from last year to this year to capture his style as well as the Bucks style. Same difference with playbooks post release right?

But we are minority. This effects 25% tops of all 2k players whether they know it or not? Idk hopefully 1 day they try it and it picks up traction. The more people realize it in how bad it is it will 1 day warrant a change. I should start a thread pointing all these out and don’t get me started on the classic player tendencies... lol

Not to be that guy, but I think this subgroup is a very small minority. Plus, "how the game should play" is so subjective, it will always be hard to make the "best rosters" for NBA 2K out of the box.