AI Defense Sometimes Getting Lost On Help Defense For No Reason

[Baebae32]

Re: AI Defense Sometimes Getting Lost On Help Defense For No Reason

Still believe that the defender shouldnt rotate completely under the basket. Should be programmed to where the guy stops a couple steps outside the paint when guarding a shooter and when guarding a non shooter the defender should just stradle the lane line. Understand the idea for the rotation just think the execution of the idea could be implemented much better

[335TDC]

Re: AI Defense Sometimes Getting Lost On Help Defense For No Reason

Just as bad is the AI logic on transitions. First man back STILL plays mannequin under the basket and coming off dead balls your PG STILL wanders aimlessly within the herd.

Why the defender won't hover at half court after inbounds is still astonishing. How difficult could THAT be to program in?!


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[Smirkin Dirk]

Re: AI Defense Sometimes Getting Lost On Help Defense For No Reason

A couple of things you guys need to look out for.

Setting pre-rotate to on causes a defender to move across to defend the ball when it's on the wing. Ive seen some examples of this from people and it's clear theyve set pre-rotate to on.

The new diagrams clear up a lot, and the screen help rules and drive help rules are important. By default, they seem to be set to auto so a guy driving either in iso/transition or off PNR will trigger rotations which of course means open dudes. If you want help and rotation, choose the worst shooter on the other team (Think Mbah a Moute, Roberson. If you are playing GSW...there is nothing that can be done) and set his off ball coverage to 'leave open'. Then you have a better chance of good shooters being defended.


Help and no rotation for screen help rules/drive help rules will basically trigger help at the rim only.

Getting your dudes to stay home more consistently will be helped by choosing 'no help', but be prepared for a lay up drill if your on ball D is shaky.

I havent seen ACE in every situation against every team, that will come over the next few months. But we absolutely have the tools. Its fantastic.

One thing I noticed is that ACE does make some decisions. For instance, I go over and drop back on screens as Im playing with the Mavs. I noticed that in late shot clock situations, ACE will change to 'switch' when Im defending PNRs which is typical of how damn good 2K is with minor details.

[Whomario]

Re: AI Defense Sometimes Getting Lost On Help Defense For No Reason

A couple of things you guys need to look out for.

Setting pre-rotate to on causes a defender to move across to defend the ball when it's on the wing. Ive seen some examples of this from people and it's clear theyve set pre-rotate to on.

The new diagrams clear up a lot, and the screen help rules and drive help rules are important. By default, they seem to be set to auto so a guy driving either in iso/transition or off PNR will trigger rotations which of course means open dudes. If you want help and rotation, choose the worst shooter on the other team (Think Mbah a Moute, Roberson. If you are playing GSW...there is nothing that can be done) and set his off ball coverage to 'leave open'. Then you have a better chance of good shooters being defended.


Help and no rotation for screen help rules/drive help rules will basically trigger help at the rim only.

Getting your dudes to stay home more consistently will be helped by choosing 'no help', but be prepared for a lay up drill if your on ball D is shaky.

I havent seen ACE in every situation against every team, that will come over the next few months. But we absolutely have the tools. Its fantastic.

One thing I noticed is that ACE does make some decisions. For instance, I go over and drop back on screens as Im playing with the Mavs. I noticed that in late shot clock situations, ACE will change to 'switch' when Im defending PNRs which is typical of how damn good 2K is with minor details.

The problem is that none of this applies to MyCareer (which a ton of people play) nor to the CPU which bothers quite a few others, including myself. That being said, i find it a lot less prevelant than last year and that's without a gameplay patch yet so i am cautiously optimistic.

[Smirkin Dirk]

Re: AI Defense Sometimes Getting Lost On Help Defense For No Reason

The problem is that none of this applies to MyCareer (which a ton of people play) nor to the CPU which bothers quite a few others, including myself. That being said, i find it a lot less prevelant than last year and that's without a gameplay patch yet so i am cautiously optimistic.

Apologies, I stupidly overlooked the OP that mentioned mycareer.

[jlaz]

Re: AI Defense Sometimes Getting Lost On Help Defense For No Reason

Apologies, I stupidly overlooked the OP that mentioned mycareer.

your info is still helpful for other modes tho.

[sudanmalkovich]

Re: AI Defense Sometimes Getting Lost On Help Defense For No Reason

ACE off, Help and no rotation, pre-rotate off, stay home. STILL does the damn thing.

setting the Individual defence pressure to Deny TEMPORALILY fix the problem.
however Deny means your defender gets tired easily and even gets blown by. all these efforts are not smart in the first place.

[Smirkin Dirk]

Re: AI Defense Sometimes Getting Lost On Help Defense For No Reason

ACE off, Help and no rotation, pre-rotate off, stay home. STILL does the damn thing.

setting the Individual defence pressure to Deny TEMPORALILY fix the problem.

How often? What are the circumstances? You have a video of it?

[strawberryshortcake]

Re: AI Defense Sometimes Getting Lost On Help Defense For No Reason




Please take note of all the defenders in this gif. This is a legacy 2k concern,
a defensive legacy concern.

Please click spoiler tag for more information. Everything is in this giant spoiler tag to save thread reply real estate. This post addresses the gif concerns and a few individuals post (i.e. DC, Whomario, cactusruss, 335TDC, BluFu.)

Spoiler

(1) Player in question that everyone is focusing on in this thread. He has his back turned as he runs toward the paint. He's looking into the crowd. That's an animation position where you would expect the man he was guarding (Chris Paul) is also cutting towards the paint. Having his back turned to James Harden is not a position where he is potentially defending James Harden driving the paint. He has no awareness of James Harden's potential action. Secondly, he actually head tracks Chris Paul, sees Chris Paul standing still at the perimeter 3 point line, and still runs into the paint with his back still turned to James Harden and watching the crowd in the stands.

(2) You can see 2k's legacy programming defensive logic of "players needing to get back to their "spots" (discussed below) first and foremost with the defender in question (#2 jersey number) at the very start of the play where he was on the other side of the court (when he was on offensive duties). Notice how he sprints back to defense without even headtracking Chris Paul. #2 defender was already programmed to get back to his "spot" on the defensive side of the court.

(3) Take note of the transition defense by all the defenders. Take specific notes of the very first defender back across half court, take special note of the defender in the white arm sleeve. Notice two specific sequence.

(A) Their movements as they are going back into get back defense.
(B) Immediately once they have reached their "spots" and turn around to face the offense, they then become "aware" of their assignments.

Please take special note of how each defender picks up their man immediately once they turn around. Look at those circular arcs path that the defenders are taking to find their assigned man. That's a 2k legacy issue for ALL their transition defense. There is actually more to this, but that's part of the defensive legacy.

The defenders having their backs turned to the transition offense. This is where 2k's major legacy concern still and will continue to linger and cause defensive awareness problems. I will be putting together something more in depth about this in a separate thread (maybe in a month or so).

As the defenders run back on transition while staring into the crowded seats, with their backs turned to the offense, the defenders are essentially losing positional awareness of the offense players. The defenders are essentially programmed first and foremost to get back to their "spots," turning around to face the offense, and then visually headtrack to pick up their assigned man. That gives the offense a major advantage especially during the transition.

Part of the problem is the player (us) having "gods-view" rather than a more limited and realistic field of vision. Part of the reason these rotations seem so bad is that they are so easy to see with the wide-angle camera we are having.

God's view or not does not affect how the Xs and Os moves on the court. When teams has their film session, they're able to see from God's view. Throughout the course of the game, what you see in 2k's translation of defensive awareness is concerning and would not realistically represent poor defensive awareness.

I'm not trying to sound condescending or anything, but do you guys even watch real life NBA basketball?

Spoiler

Harden looked like he was about to drive the lane so the defender slid over to help protect the rim and left his guy open, Harden kicked out to the open man and he hit a 3. This happens all the time in the NBA. Eventually teams will adjust and stay on their man but acting like someone would never leave their assignment to help protect against a superstar driving the lane is just silly.

I do agree that the CPU takes too many threes though. But again, the GIF posted here is something that happens in real life NBA games all the time.

Please refer to the slow motion gif and information up top.

So how often should this happen?

With the way and how it is programmed in the above gif scenario, never.

So my question is ...

Spoiler

always this. How can a basketball video game accurately simulate bad awareness without us saying the game is BROKEN?

Bad awareness happens MULTIPLE times during real games, so to PURPOSELY replicate that in a video game without you thinking it is a GAME issue vs. it being a defender just being out of position.

Please answer

What should defensive mishaps look like?

We keep saying what it SHOULDN'T look like but nobody ever says what it looks like

The answer that you're looking for is in the following quote by BluFu, and the James Harden video below. There's essentially two ways to play defense in general. Ball watching or Man watching. The defender is usually out of position or allows the offensive man to get open when the defender is ball watching. Off ball defense is theoretically much more difficult than On-ball defense. Off-ball requires the defender to pay attention to the play at hand and his assigned man. 100% focused on the play at hand (i.e. where the basketball is currently at) and you will lose peripheral vision of your assigned man.

The use of James Harden video below often shows him ball watching, thus allowing his man to get free/open. James Harden also takes bad angles, but even so, notice how quickly Harden tries to get back to guard his man as soon as he realizes he has made a defensive mistake. Look at the urgency in Harden's movements. He is multiple steps late -- that's the way to accurately represents poor defensive awareness. Player out of positions needs to be ball watching and then their adrenaline rush kicks in because they took their eyes off their man. Harden initially is still in pretty good position, but as he focuses 100% of his attention on ball watching, that's when he gets into trouble.

Answer #1

We already see regular defensive mishaps in the game though. Shooters can get left open throughout the course of the game naturally off of drive & kicks, double teams, post up & kick-outs, as well as designed plays. That's basketball.

Defenders running off of a shooter to the paint when there is absolutely no driving threat imminent is not excusable as a "defensive mishap". It's poor (or rather, broken) logic.

Answer #2
James Harden bad defense

<iframe src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/-J7XX0TGfsQ" allowfullscreen="" width="560" height="315" frameborder="0"></iframe>

Just as bad is the AI logic on transitions. First man back STILL plays mannequin under the basket and coming off dead balls your PG STILL wanders aimlessly within the herd.

Why the defender won't hover at half court after inbounds is still astonishing. How difficult could THAT be to program in?!

Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

I have something in store about this later this month or whenever I get a chance to write it up. But part of it involves what I wrote up top.

EDIT: Secondly, if they can't immediately rectify this type of unfortunate defensive logic, can we at least have a post game segment of Shaq and a Fool (or even something like Kenny's Knucklehead, etc.) to highlight these purposely implemented mishaps. That way we can distinguish what is a programming bug from what's considered programmed defensive awareness mishaps.

[sudanmalkovich]

Re: AI Defense Sometimes Getting Lost On Help Defense For No Reason

How often? What are the circumstances? You have a video of it?

Not that often tho. once or twice per quarter maybe? with or without the defence setting. (hof, 12min)
sorry, didn't even bother to record it. actually not that big annoyance for me cuz I take it as one of many stupid things the game's limited AI does anyway. not that annoying as frame stuttering for sure lol.

I always set the game that way (ACE off, help & no rotation blah blah) since 2K17.

so I manually control when that happens instead of Deny pressure thing.

the funny thing is that defence setting you said was the temporary fix for stupid AI defence when 2k17 came out lol.
Sam Pham first came up with the idea I remember that.

[Smirkin Dirk]

Re: AI Defense Sometimes Getting Lost On Help Defense For No Reason

Not that often tho. once or twice per quarter maybe? with or without the defence setting. (hof, 12min)
sorry, didn't even bother to record it. actually not that big annoyance for me cuz I take it as one of many stupid things the game's limited AI does anyway. not that annoying as frame stuttering for sure lol.

I always set the game that way (ACE off, help & no rotation blah blah) since 2K17.

so I manually control when that happens instead of Deny pressure thing.

the funny thing is that defence setting you said was the temporary fix for stupid AI defence when 2k17 came out lol.
Sam Pham first came up with the idea I remember that.

If I set my guys to no rotation, I find it more consistent when the off ball pressure is set to tight off ball coverage.

If users want their defenders to not help off shooters, they should be playing tight/deny anyway. It would look stupid if they were moderate or gapping and letting guys drive by.

I just played the 11 Bulls with no rotation and Rose made a mess of me. They started isoing him on the wing, Im assuming the system recognised I was paying him 1 on 1.

[RxBis]

Re: AI Defense Sometimes Getting Lost On Help Defense For No Reason

more examples :

NBA 2K18_20170920114747.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91oSxyxbijY&feature=youtu.be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdRkuLre-iM&feature=youtu.be

[MarkWilliam]

Re: AI defense is broken.. again..

So my question is always this. How can a basketball video game accurately simulate bad awareness without us saying the game is BROKEN?

Bad awareness happens MULTIPLE times during real games, so to PURPOSELY replicate that in a video game without you thinking it is a GAME issue vs. it being a defender just being out of position.

Please answer

To me bad awareness shouldn't be from a stationary situation against a player who is a threat to knock down Js.

Bad awareness in a video game should be exposed when a player moves off the ball (like a slower reaction time before they follow their assignment). Or failure to switch/hedge/ICE despite the instruction (on defensive settings). Perhaps failure to pick up their man immediately when getting back on defense. Certain things (like PnR schemes) require more awareness than just standing next to a stationary shooting threat in the corner.

But to find their man, then drop way off despite the knowledge that they can shoot - I can understand how it frustrates people.

But equally, I've suggested some things. No clue about coding and how hard it would be to code into a game.

Just trying to constructively suggest a few things.

[The 24th Letter]

Re: AI Defense Sometimes Getting Lost On Help Defense For No Reason

Man, so you're not allowed to change defensive settings in MyCareer?

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[Baebae32]

Re: AI Defense Sometimes Getting Lost On Help Defense For No Reason

more examples :

[ATTACH]140881[/ATTACH]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91oSxyxbijY&feature=youtu.be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdRk...ature=youtu.be

Again if these help defenders stop just shy of the lane line on their rotations instead of sitting under the rim then they would be in perfect position to assist on drive if needed while also being able to provide some sort of contest on the corner jumper. That is really the main thing that needs to be addressed imo