Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

[EccentricMeat]

Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

then share the settings! Lets see what we have been missing last couple of months. Enlighten us, please!


And I dont understand how can offline be so much different than online? You think they build different engine for different modes? I dont think so. Especially after witnessing passing fumbles being a non-existant thing in this new iteration. And thats only an example.

I would imagine online you can’t switch to the other team to fix their settings.

And if you want bobbled/dropped passes you need to decrease the Pass Accuracy slider. Hopefully 2K can change something going forward so that Pass Accuracy only affects pass accuracy, and a separate slider will be introduced for players’ ability to catch passes.

[CujoMatty]

Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

This just further enforces what I’ve been saying for years: 2K needs to split the gameplay into two modes: “Sim” and “Competitive”. These two modes will have different code so that the online modes can be set to “Competitive” and that version of gameplay can be tweaked without affecting the offline “Sim” gameplay.

“Sim” can have realistic basketball without the dribble and pace abuse, dunk in traffic BS, realistic amount of fouls, inaccurate passes and bad catches, etc.

“Competitive” can give that over the top arcade gameplay the online Park players seem to like, without bogging them down with realism and fouls and strategy and physics.

When Twitter and YouTube complain that their players aren’t fast enough or can’t dunk on 3 defenders enough, they can send out a tuner to the “Competitive” mode without affecting “Sim”. When sim players say they need more fouls and more inaccurate passes and better defensive AI, they can tune that gameplay without scaring away the Mountain Dew + Dorito online crowd.

Please 2K. You can’t keep trying to have one version of gameplay appease two differing groups with opposing views on how the game should play. You just end up putting out something in the middle that doesn’t make either group happy.






Set Stay Attached to No for the CPU team and the defender will react. Tweak the sliders and he will react better. Increase the movement speed for slow players and they’ll more quickly be able to get into position.

If you want the defender to always drop, go into the defense settings for the CPU and set the hedge defense settings to No Hedge. If you want to let the game decide then leave it on auto.

The problem with the defense right now is the “automatic adjustments” by the CPU. They simply won’t properly adjust to stop what you’re doing. The AI should know to drop immediately whenever a player like Ben Simmons runs the PnR. He can’t shoot but is fast and a great passer, so in what world is the default response to stand and watch at the elbow? We shouldn’t have to manually adjust the CPU defensive settings every game, but until they fix the AI that’s what we have to do.

You keep getting my hopes up lol.

Stay attached to no and no hedge dont fix anything for me.

Anyways I appreciate your efforts.

[Lagoa]

Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

I did several tests last night and I noticed something:

BADGES disrupt player ratings. I delete Ben Simmons ofensive BADGES and he’s stop monster dominant.

It is still easy to score with him, but not as before. It seems that the defense acts differently when a player has ofensive badges. Later I'll post the sliders I'm using.

[EccentricMeat]

Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

You keep getting my hopes up lol.

Stay attached to no and no hedge dont fix anything for me.

Anyways I appreciate your efforts.

What difficulty are you playing? And are you on next gen? I’m sorry but there’s 0 chance that every single thing I’ve said has had no affect on your gameplay lol.

Post a video on default HOF with just Stay Attached set to No for the CPU team.

[TheEmperor2001]

Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

I'm playing on HOF default sliders and I think I've found something. If interested, give this fix a try:

Remove all of the Finishing, Playmaking, and Athleticism badges from every player on the team you are using. I just did this, and the CPU pick and roll defense is now *very* effective and realistic. Their defense in the paint is much more effective as well. Give it a try and let me know if it works for you too.

NOTE: I'm playing current gen (Xbox One), and I'm using the Kings against the Raptors.

I did several tests last night and I noticed something:

BADGES disrupt player ratings. I delete Ben Simmons ofensive BADGES and he’s stop monster dominant.

It is still easy to score with him, but not as before. It seems that the defense acts differently when a player has ofensive badges. Later I'll post the sliders I'm using.

Lol, yea, I said this a couple of days ago 😂😂😂. Anyway, I play on HOF default sliders, and this approach is very effective. The defense doesn't act different, the offensive player does. Finishing and playmaking badges when equipped to the USER team give us an unfair advantage. Badges like contact finisher, relentless finisher, etc. are far too powerful. Same with badges like unpluckable, quick first step, etc. These badges, when they're all equipped to the same player (as is the case with elite playmakers on 2K) basically make them immune to anything the defense does to try and stop them.

When you layer these badges with a screen setter in a pick and roll who is equipped with badges like brick wall and P&R finisher; you get a literally unstoppable combination.

[Dione2014]

Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

I don't know man. His settings worked perfectly on my end.

This stuff doesn’t work. It’s still crap. I went into the cpu team and adjusted gameplan and you can still abuse PNR. I have tried tons of slider settings. You can preach about sliders and setting all day long but please stop preaching about them to me. This aspect of the game is broken. If you disagree then fine but I’m done debating sliders and settings. The only solution to this mess is 2K patching the hedge man. The big AI is terrible.

Sent from my SM-N986U1 using Operation Sports mobile app

[CujoMatty]

Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

What difficulty are you playing? And are you on next gen? I’m sorry but there’s 0 chance that every single thing I’ve said has had no affect on your gameplay lol.

Post a video on default HOF with just Stay Attached set to No for the CPU team.

I guess you could say at least the big doesn't stand there like a deer in headlights so if that's what you mean by having no affect then I can concede that at a very minimal and no real benefit to my enjoyment that it's "better"? I dunno I can still get uncontested layups all day.

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[EccentricMeat]

Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

I guess you could say at least the big doesn't stand there like a deer in headlights so if that's what you mean by having no affect then I can concede that at a very minimal and no real benefit to my enjoyment that it's "better"? I dunno I can still get uncontested layups all day.

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Perfect, thank you for the examples. Now we can actually diagnose the issues and give real feedback.

The first couple plays were a pick-and-pop where the on-ball defender avoided the screen entirely by going under. In this situation, the hedge defender reacts to this as if no pick was even set, so he doesn’t help and instead stays with the screener to cover the shot. Honestly I don’t see a problem with that at default settings, as the real problem is 1) the on-ball defender takes a ridiculous angle after going under the screen allowing easy penetration, and 2) the help defense is lazy/non-existent. Both can be fixed by sliders and coach Profile tweaks, but the argument should be made that at default the defensive response should be much better. (Will 2K boost defense here? I doubt it, as they seem to be catering to the online crowd where AI defense shouldn’t exist).

When the screen was actually successful, the hedge defender DOES react to the play and at least attempt to cover the drive. Again, with default settings this defender will be far too slow to actually do anything, coupled with AI defense just being weak for the aforementioned reasons. And again, this issue can be solved via settings and sliders.

So I guess we’re getting to the point where our opinions (or at least, solutions) differ. Where as you seem to (rightfully) want the AI to defend properly without making tweaks, I just want to at least be able to tweak the defense to defend properly.

I am also of the belief that 2K will not make the default AI defense difficult or realistic so as to appease the online crowd, but I do believe we have the tools available to us do that ourselves.

[CujoMatty]

Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

Perfect, thank you for the examples. Now we can actually diagnose the issues and give real feedback.

The first couple plays were a pick-and-pop where the on-ball defender avoided the screen entirely by going under. In this situation, the hedge defender reacts to this as if no pick was even set, so he doesn’t help and instead stays with the screener to cover the shot. Honestly I don’t see a problem with that at default settings, as the real problem is 1) the on-ball defender takes a ridiculous angle after going under the screen allowing easy penetration, and 2) the help defense is lazy/non-existent. Both can be fixed by sliders and coach Profile tweaks, but the argument should be made that at default the defensive response should be much better. (Will 2K boost defense here? I doubt it, as they seem to be catering to the online crowd where AI defense shouldn’t exist).

When the screen was actually successful, the hedge defender DOES react to the play and at least attempt to cover the drive. Again, with default settings this defender will be far too slow to actually do anything, coupled with AI defense just being weak for the aforementioned reasons. And again, this issue can be solved via settings and sliders.

So I guess we’re getting to the point where our opinions (or at least, solutions) differ. Where as you seem to (rightfully) want the AI to defend properly without making tweaks, I just want to at least be able to tweak the defense to defend properly.

I am also of the belief that 2K will not make the default AI defense difficult or realistic so as to appease the online crowd, but I do believe we have the tools available to us do that ourselves.

I dont have an issue with adjusting settings or sliders as long as the game still retains what is good about it. I know some sacrifices would need to be accepted. My problem is that none of the coaching slider adjustments have really done anything significant to improve the defending to an extent that I could salvage fun.

The other slider adjustments you suggested in terms of movement might help but honestly they made the game play so herky jerky and the flow and movement that 2k next gen really does well(other than labotomizing the defense) was lost. I'm sincerely glad if people can consider those fixes acceptable but for me honestly, I'd rather just not play.

You seem to be figuring more and more out everyday though so I have faith in you if you keep trying lol. If you are happy with your fixes and stop here though I get it. I woulda gave up by now.

[strosdood]

Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

I guess you could say at least the big doesn't stand there like a deer in headlights so if that's what you mean by having no affect then I can concede that at a very minimal and no real benefit to my enjoyment that it's "better"? I dunno I can still get uncontested layups all day.



<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/DWat4aE3J54" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Have u tried just making the team focus for the cpu defense to “switch all” at the top of that coach settings menu?...... then u can figure out the other settings that Eccentric has suggested, I’m not home and can’t remember the sweet spot I found but I’ve gotten pretty decent results with that one being the first one I change


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[Vedreanu]

Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

This stuff doesn’t work. It’s still crap. I went into the cpu team and adjusted gameplan and you can still abuse PNR. I have tried tons of slider settings. You can preach about sliders and setting all day long but please stop preaching about them to me. This aspect of the game is broken. If you disagree then fine but I’m done debating sliders and settings. The only solution to this mess is 2K patching the hedge man. The big AI is terrible.

For me it worked for some time, about a quarter or max two, but then back to the same stuf.

[CujoMatty]

Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

Have u tried just making the team focus for the cpu defense to “switch all” at the top of that coach settings menu?...... then u can figure out the other settings that Eccentric has suggested, I’m not home and can’t remember the sweet spot I found but I’ve gotten pretty decent results with that one being the first one I change


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I guess I assumed pick and roll and pick and pop would be equally borked but after reading eccentrics comments on my video I decided to try something so I've been experimenting the last hour or so and I've set the team defensive help setting slider to 100. I have every screen option to switch all even ones that eccentric didnt suggest lol. hedge attach to no.

What I've found is the CPU isnt perfect but it is better dare I say tolerable(too soon to declare this for me though) as long as I dont call pick and pops just pick and Rolls. That's not ideal as I love the pick and pop especially considering it's a big part of the Raptors offense as everyone can hit 3s. If it means I can enjoy this game though I might be able to live with just using pick and rolls for drive and dishes.

Again though havent tested enough but I am seeing decent results so far.

[EccentricMeat]

Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

I guess I assumed pick and roll and pick and pop would be equally borked but after reading eccentrics comments on my video I decided to try something so I've been experimenting the last hour or so and I've set the team defensive help setting slider to 100. I have every screen option to switch all even ones that eccentric didnt suggest lol. hedge attach to no.

What I've found is the CPU isnt perfect but it is better dare I say tolerable(too soon to declare this for me though) as long as I dont call pick and pops just pick and Rolls. That's not ideal as I love the pick and pop especially considering it's a big part of the Raptors offense as everyone can hit 3s. If it means I can enjoy this game though I might be able to live with just using pick and rolls for drive and dishes.

Again though havent tested enough but I am seeing decent results so far.

Yea you can go real in depth tweaking the defense settings to make the game play the way you’d like, I just wasn’t about to type it al out because it’s mostly self explanatory lol

For the pick and pop being too consistent, you can decrease the Pass Speed slider so everyone isn’t able to no-look bullet pass like Lebron, and also increase the Jumpshot Defense Strength sliders to make close outs more aggressive and fast.

Someone suggested using “Switch All”, which works for defending the PnR/fade, but the problem then becomes dominating too easily in the post. Since you can force a PG to cover a C or PF every trip down the floor, you can just force the switch and then abuse the low post over and over.

I haven’t tested the post double team settings yet to counteract, so that might be a fix as well.

[CujoMatty]

Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

Yea you can go real in depth tweaking the defense settings to make the game play the way you’d like, I just wasn’t about to type it al out because it’s mostly self explanatory lol

For the pick and pop being too consistent, you can decrease the Pass Speed slider so everyone isn’t able to no-look bullet pass like Lebron, and also increase the Jumpshot Defense Strength sliders to make close outs more aggressive and fast.

Someone suggested using “Switch All”, which works for defending the PnR/fade, but the problem then becomes dominating too easily in the post. Since you can force a PG to cover a C or PF every trip down the floor, you can just force the switch and then abuse the low post over and over.

I haven’t tested the post double team settings yet to counteract, so that might be a fix as well.

I just had the best game I've had so far and I'm trying not to get too excited as it was only one game but I couldnt abuse the pick and roll or the pick and pop at all. Honestly not at all.

All I did was stro's suggestion of changing the top of the menu coach's strategy to switch and then the stay attached to no. I'm not to proud to say I didnt even know you could do that lol I was changing each individual option below to switch all and even though it looks like nothing should be different then switching just the top option, it sure does seem like the magic button for me.

Just those minor changes was enough to make it way better but I also lowered just the user acceleration slider to 45 to give my players a minor disadvantage coming off a screen and like I said I couldnt abuse either pick action all game.

Like you stated I'm sure this creates post mis matches but honestly I dont use the post much at all so I'm personally not overly concerned there. I also didn't have problems with wide open guys for 3 which was nice.

I switched the user defense setting to switch as well and the stay attached to no and I seemed to get more fouls against me in the paint for free throws which low numbers were bothering me as well. Hope this also holds up and I'm golden.

Anyways, I hope this isnt a one game anomaly cause I'm really optimistic for some enjoyment out of this game finally.

I had another question for one thing I've never really understood. I have found good sliders for almost all other aspects of the game, rebounds, turnovers, three attempts, etc.... but I set them from superstar as a base. Does that matter or is it just a custom difficulty now? or should I go to hall of fame and redo the sliders with that as a base if I want to have hall of fame difficulty?

[EccentricMeat]

Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

I just had the best game I've had so far and I'm trying not to get too excited as it was only one game but I couldnt abuse the pick and roll or the pick and pop at all. Honestly not at all.

All I did was stro's suggestion of changing the top of the menu coach's strategy to switch and then the stay attached to no. I'm not to proud to say I didnt even know you could do that lol I was changing each individual option below to switch all and even though it looks like nothing should be different then switching just the top option, it sure does seem like the magic button for me.

Just those minor changes was enough to make it way better but I also lowered just the user acceleration slider to 45 to give my players a minor disadvantage coming off a screen and like I said I couldnt abuse either pick action all game.

Like you stated I'm sure this creates post mis matches but honestly I dont use the post much at all so I'm personally not overly concerned there. I also didn't have problems with wide open guys for 3 which was nice.

I switched the user defense setting to switch as well and the stay attached to no and I seemed to get more fouls against me in the paint for free throws which low numbers were bothering me as well. Hope this also holds up and I'm golden.

Anyways, I hope this isnt a one game anomaly cause I'm really optimistic for some enjoyment out of this game finally.

I had another question for one thing I've never really understood. I have found good sliders for almost all other aspects of the game, rebounds, turnovers, three attempts, etc.... but I set them from superstar as a base. Does that matter or is it just a custom difficulty now? or should I go to hall of fame and redo the sliders with that as a base if I want to have hall of fame difficulty?

Yea I brought up changing the CPU to Switch All previously as a solution to PnR issues at the cost of post abuse. It won’t be a one game anomaly for you, it does a great job with the PnR!

If you like the way they’re playing on Superstar then just leave it and enjoy! Honestly who knows if it matters what difficulty you start at, once it’s at custom it seems the same no matter what. I know in the past 2K have said higher difficulties mean ACE is more fully utilized by the AI, but who knows.