Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

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  • Vedreanu
    Rookie
    • Apr 2020
    • 224

    #181
    Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

    Interesting...


    Last nite I plugged in 2k21 after some time, eager to see the state of it after the update. Went for CPU vs CPU Knicks - Lakers. Through the whole game HelpD was really great (even with coaching slider at only 50), a glimpse or two, but without those it would be too perfect. Thats not god either.



    Hell, even some defensive settings finally worked (but those for PNR defense just wont stick after some time) with ACE turned ON, as per DaCzar's directions!
    I've never so far managed to force the CPU defender play EXTEND PRESSURE on the CPU playmaker. And this one sticked through the whole match, forcing Elfried Payton to a dosen of turnovers.







    But today, just some time ago, after seeing this post, I decided to test with Bucks vs Sixers.


    With THE SAME SLIDERS...


    I saw the same thing as the guy with the video above. The ****?

    I turned off the game after 3 minutes having witnessed every PNR ending with a dunk except one!





    I dont understand this.
    Last edited by Vedreanu; 12-17-2020, 09:13 AM.

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    • Lagoa
      Pro
      • Apr 2008
      • 916

      #182
      Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still



      AGAIN: It´s not speed issue, its DEFENSE REACTION/CHOICE.

      Look at this Help D. Seriously, no basketball game I've played in 20 years has had this kind of treatment.

      It's a team sport, HELP DEFENSE is a complete part of the sport, it's like taking the rebound, the basket ... it's unacceptable for this game to be that way TODAY.
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      • TheEmperor2001
        Rookie
        • Apr 2010
        • 46

        #183
        Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

        Originally posted by Lagoa
        https://twitter.com/lagoanba/status/1339573444690784256

        AGAIN: It´s not speed issue, its DEFENSE REACTION/CHOICE.

        Look at this Help D. Seriously, no basketball game I've played in 20 years has had this kind of treatment.

        It's a team sport, HELP DEFENSE is a complete part of the sport, it's like taking the rebound, the basket ... it's unacceptable for this game to be that way TODAY.
        Exactly. And I understand that the defense has to give up *something*. But, for some reason, they choose to give up the layup *every single time*. If I'm scoring all my points in the paint, one would think the CPU would make an adjustment. And, if after the adjustment, I hit 5-6 3s in a row...then the CPU should adjust back. But the first adjustment to take away the layup/dunk is never made. This is the issue.

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        • mvpstax
          Rookie
          • May 2020
          • 203

          #184
          Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

          Picks and screens are meant to free up drives and/or shooters, so from a defensive standpoint, the awareness to rotate is really the key here. On defense you're trying to, at the least, get up a good contest to the shot. Imagine if rotations worked and then offenses were forced to actually swing the ball to the open man?

          Here's a great video that shows how defensive rotations work on screens: https://youtu.be/3E5uVWnIbmc

          Can 2K possibly implement some of this logic?

          Like really Help Defense shouldn't even be a slider in this game. That's such basic basketball... turning down defensive awareness should effect how the players react. It's the logic that needs work.

          Comment

          • Lagoa
            Pro
            • Apr 2008
            • 916

            #185
            Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

            I Try with ZERO on sliders Defensive Awareness, exacly same results...
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            • Vedreanu
              Rookie
              • Apr 2020
              • 224

              #186
              Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

              Originally posted by Lagoa
              https://twitter.com/lagoanba/status/1339573444690784256

              AGAIN: It´s not speed issue, its DEFENSE REACTION/CHOICE.

              Look at this Help D. Seriously, no basketball game I've played in 20 years has had this kind of treatment.

              It's a team sport, HELP DEFENSE is a complete part of the sport, it's like taking the rebound, the basket ... it's unacceptable for this game to be that way TODAY.

              This is enough evidence for a refund
              defective product


              sounds harsh, but this is a rather expensive product in its sector




              Originally posted by Lagoa
              I Try with ZERO on sliders Defensive Awareness, exacly same results...

              Have you turned ACE on?


              I mean, this shouldnt be happening even at the lowest CPU level with all sliders down to minimum.

              Comment

              • EccentricMeat
                MVP
                • Aug 2011
                • 3240

                #187
                Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

                Originally posted by Lagoa
                https://twitter.com/lagoanba/status/1339400658542338048

                This is the dribble I use all the time to test the pick n roll defense and the CPU fails miserably 80% of the time. Even changing defense sliders ... nothing really works.

                Look at Lopez's attitude in defense, he just watches the opponent pass. I can repeat this move for 20x in a row that nothing changes ....
                Alright, what exact settings did you use? I tried at default HOF and can't recreate this even once. I tried at HOF with just Defense Awareness at 100, still can't recreate this.

                To clarify, the defense is still bad for me at these settings. But I can't get EVERYONE to just stand and watch.
                Last edited by EccentricMeat; 12-17-2020, 11:28 AM.
                My Slider Threads
                NBA 2K25 "The Eccentric Edition" Realistic Slider Set
                The "Movement" Sliders Explained
                The "Defense" Sliders Explained

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                • The 24th Letter
                  ERA
                  • Oct 2007
                  • 39373

                  #188
                  Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

                  Anyone?

                  Is the video everyone else's experience on HOF default?

                  Going to post mine here in a minute.

                  Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk

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                  • BaselineBakes
                    MVP
                    • Dec 2006
                    • 1510

                    #189
                    Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

                    Originally posted by The 24th Letter
                    Anyone?

                    Is the video everyone else's experience on HOF default?

                    Going to post mine here in a minute.

                    Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk

                    I went down the slider rabbit hole for a bit with nothing fixing it so now just back on default HOF player locked PG. I can’t recreate this every single time but it happens more often than I’d like it to.


                    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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                    • The 24th Letter
                      ERA
                      • Oct 2007
                      • 39373

                      #190
                      Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

                      Originally posted by BaselineBakes
                      I went down the slider rabbit hole for a bit with nothing fixing it so now just back on default HOF player locked PG. I can’t recreate this every single time but it happens more often than I’d like it to.


                      Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
                      Same.

                      I just want to make sure we are getting some tangible feedback...it can still be bad and not happen like that every single time, or able to be done a bunch of times in a row. Settings/level, all of that is important.

                      at the end of the day I just want it fixed up like the rest if us.

                      Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk

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                      • CujoMatty
                        Member of Rush Nation
                        • Oct 2007
                        • 5445

                        #191
                        Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

                        Originally posted by Lagoa
                        https://twitter.com/lagoanba/status/1339573444690784256

                        AGAIN: It´s not speed issue, its DEFENSE REACTION/CHOICE.

                        Look at this Help D. Seriously, no basketball game I've played in 20 years has had this kind of treatment.

                        It's a team sport, HELP DEFENSE is a complete part of the sport, it's like taking the rebound, the basket ... it's unacceptable for this game to be that way TODAY.
                        Another great clip. Exactly what I'm experiencing. It's not as blatant as this everytime but it's enough to be not fun to play.

                        I play on Superstar and in the past I would probably win between 50 to 60% of my games. Right now im winning 100% and by 30 or more points. It's like another guy said. They should give up one or the other but you can get an uncontested layup and a kick for a wide open 3 all day. Also the CPU just sucks at offense. The only way I get a decent game is if a superstar gets hot. Mitchell dropped 41 on me and it was at least closer but I still won by 17. If they dont get hot its brick city. The CPU has shooting percentages in the 30s often and I boosted their shooting sliders to 59 mid range and 63 3 point.

                        I'm not good at 2k at all which is really troubling. I cant imagine how it plays for someone who is good.
                        2016 NLL Champion Saskatchewan Rush
                        2018 NLL Champion Saskatchewan Rush
                        2019 CEBL Champion Saskatchewan Rattlers

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                        • rc23
                          Rookie
                          • May 2011
                          • 8

                          #192
                          Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

                          I have found that when holding down turbo the entire time while going around a screen and to the rim, that the defense doesn't really react (pretty similar to what we see in the video). If I lay off turbo completely or for just a quick second to to explode into screen, I might see better help defense and animations from the defense. Its little bit harder to get your player to attack the angle you want without turbo, but I see better results from defense.

                          Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

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                          • rudyjuly2
                            Cade Cunningham
                            • Aug 2002
                            • 14816

                            #193
                            Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

                            Originally posted by rc23
                            I have found that when holding down turbo the entire time while going around a screen and to the rim, that the defense doesn't really react (pretty similar to what we see in the video). If I lay off turbo completely or for just a quick second to to explode into screen, I might see better help defense and animations from the defense. Its little bit harder to get your player to attack the angle you want without turbo, but I see better results from defense.

                            Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
                            On that note maybe the cpu defenders should race to the rim if the ball handler is using turbo. I don’t know what kinds of logic is built in based on that stuff. I do know that standing flat footed or the old school nonsense of never crossing your feet goes out the window when an offensive player is moving fast.

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                            • EccentricMeat
                              MVP
                              • Aug 2011
                              • 3240

                              #194
                              Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

                              I had some interesting results by switching to the CPU team, pressing right on the dpad while on defense and switching to Switch Everything, then going back to my team. Really helps on the PnR obviously because they always switch, but then it’s way too easy to score in the post if you force a PG to defend a PF/C. The CPU just doesn’t adjust to help the post.
                              My Slider Threads
                              NBA 2K25 "The Eccentric Edition" Realistic Slider Set
                              The "Movement" Sliders Explained
                              The "Defense" Sliders Explained

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                              • Lagoa
                                Pro
                                • Apr 2008
                                • 916

                                #195
                                Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

                                Originally posted by EccentricMeat
                                Alright, what exact settings did you use? I tried at default HOF and can't recreate this even once. I tried at HOF with just Defense Awareness at 100, still can't recreate this.

                                To clarify, the defense is still bad for me at these settings. But I can't get EVERYONE to just stand and watch.
                                No matter the sliders .... I can play this move with Def Awareness at 0 or 100, in this video I was using default HOF + All CPU Defense Sliders at 100.

                                But it doesn't matter. Just wait for space at the key area, dribbling at the right time, it's very easy to repeat this move all the time ... if you want, I can open a live video to demonstrate to you ....

                                It's terrible ... I've already experienced a lot of problems in the NBA 2K, but like this one I never saw, I just can't play, because I can trick the CPU in every move.
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