Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

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  • EccentricMeat
    MVP
    • Aug 2011
    • 3240

    #166
    Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

    Originally posted by rudyjuly2
    I think the comment about speed or pace being the issue is false. In my last video the defender got beat because he was an idiot. And even if he was super slow then just sink to the basket and dare the mid range! Speed isn’t the issue. It’s decision making and a lack of awareness at protecting the rim at all costs. Sliders can help the PNR issue but the under the hood stuff needs fixing.

    That said, while many of us have issues with beating the cpu with it, how many of you have complained about the cpu abusing us with it? It doesn’t happen! I play a mix of on ball and off ball defence and it seems that my defenders play it better and/or the cpu dribbler doesn’t really make me pay. I play on a modified all-star but I keep both user and cpu sliders the same. In this clip from tonight rookie Bey (who projects to be a decent defender but is rated 72 or 73 in the game) plays defence better than Covington. Bey at least keeps moving his feet unlike flat footed cpu Covington. And Plumlee helps too. Any chance there is a bug in the cpu logic that doesn’t mess us up? Or am I crazy?

    https://twitter.com/rudyjuly2/status...138680833?s=21

    No that’s just how defense plays sometimes. Covington on the CPU team won’t ALWAYS stand there ignoring the play, sometimes he will switch and sometimes he will drop. Likewise your AI teammates won’t always help, sometimes they’ll just stand and watch.

    Jacking up the Help Defense coach slider will get the defense rotating down much more often, and increasing Help Defense Strength will improve the AI of those help defenders. Then tweaking the Contest Shots tendency coupled with the Defense Strength sliders will improve how well the defense then affects the layup/shot. I get people thinking “I don’t want to mess with sliders”, but if you want any improvement you’re gonna have to.
    My Slider Threads
    NBA 2K25 "The Eccentric Edition" Realistic Slider Set
    The "Movement" Sliders Explained
    The "Defense" Sliders Explained

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    • CujoMatty
      Member of Rush Nation
      • Oct 2007
      • 5445

      #167
      Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

      Originally posted by ChaseB
      This is an incorrect statement. He does discuss the player speed issue, but he says it's not something he can control -- it's in the back half of the video. He had more input on player speed in the past but the community at large did not agree with his input as much (aka Czar went too sim and people didn't like not being able to easily blow by people etc.)

      And him being honest about how he couldn't fix certain pick and roll issues -- which he did before release -- is refreshing to me because he did tell us ahead of time so people could make their own buying decision. He explained why he couldn't fix it and what he did instead as a base for future years.
      ahhhhhh gotcha, guess I missed that part.

      I find it odd that no one brought it up that Czar said there were issues with PNR on this site pre release. Quite a few comments were made about the trailer and short gameplay videos that people were seeing real bad defense in those clips. No one said "ya Czar said PNR is borked". Honestly I feel kind of dumb because I constantly commented that people shouldnt judge the game on those clips. Turns out those astute trailer observers were right.

      It is what it is though, just sucks that I could have saved my money.
      2016 NLL Champion Saskatchewan Rush
      2018 NLL Champion Saskatchewan Rush
      2019 CEBL Champion Saskatchewan Rattlers

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      • EccentricMeat
        MVP
        • Aug 2011
        • 3240

        #168
        Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

        Originally posted by Lagoa
        EccentricMeat, I really appreciate all of your attempt and detailed explanation of how to try to fix the pick n roll problem in the game.

        After using your sliders and your roster changes, the game improves, but honestly, very little ... the problem still exists and appears all the time.

        And particularly, after making the modifications, the players move very unreally, everyone is exaggeratedly slow, with slow movements .... anyway, thank you, but for me it didn't solve the problem.

        The game is still broken for me, because now, I can master pick n roll with almost any player.

        Yea, the gameplay has slowed down a bit with the recent tuner/update so some changes will need to be made with my movement sliders. But those are just secondary to actually fixing the defensive AI.

        Do you have a video I could see of the PnR defense being too weak even with my tweaks?
        My Slider Threads
        NBA 2K25 "The Eccentric Edition" Realistic Slider Set
        The "Movement" Sliders Explained
        The "Defense" Sliders Explained

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        • EccentricMeat
          MVP
          • Aug 2011
          • 3240

          #169
          Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

          What I don’t get about Czar’s answer that “if the defense rotates then it’s too easy to get an open 3”, why not actually code the defense to rotate in an intelligent way? He was giving an example and then realized “well since this is Rodman at the 3pt line it might make sense to rotate off him”, EXACTLY! Code a simple if/then sequence where the lowest 3pt rated player is left open. If that is still a decent shooter, then have the next closest defender shift down to cover a space between his assignment and the player left open.

          I just don’t buy the excuse that “online players can abuse realistic defense too easily”, or else real-life NBA players would have figured that out by now as well. Code realistic defense, and make players read and react.
          My Slider Threads
          NBA 2K25 "The Eccentric Edition" Realistic Slider Set
          The "Movement" Sliders Explained
          The "Defense" Sliders Explained

          Comment

          • CujoMatty
            Member of Rush Nation
            • Oct 2007
            • 5445

            #170
            Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

            Originally posted by The 24th Letter
            That Q&A was about as transparent & open as you're going to get from a dev....even opened the door for feedback.. I feel like that's what we're constantly asking for as a community. Anyone hit Czar with vids or comment on his YT he said he'll be monitoring for the next couple of weeks?

            Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk
            I tried to save some clips yesterday and this is going to sound like the biggest load of crap but I cant actually save videos anymore lol. When I try to trim and then save it says my storage is full.

            Rocket league, Cyberpunk, Call of Duty, Fifa, NBA and Madden Is too much for the PS5 I guess.

            I would super appreciate it if someone else would though. If theres any chance it gets fixed I'd be ecstatic
            2016 NLL Champion Saskatchewan Rush
            2018 NLL Champion Saskatchewan Rush
            2019 CEBL Champion Saskatchewan Rattlers

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            • ChaseB
              #BringBackFaceuary
              • Oct 2003
              • 9844

              #171
              Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

              Originally posted by EccentricMeat
              What I don’t get about Czar’s answer that “if the defense rotates then it’s too easy to get an open 3”, why not actually code the defense to rotate in an intelligent way? He was giving an example and then realized “well since this is Rodman at the 3pt line it might make sense to rotate off him”, EXACTLY! Code a simple if/then sequence where the lowest 3pt rated player is left open. If that is still a decent shooter, then have the next closest defender shift down to cover a space between his assignment and the player left open.

              I just don’t buy the excuse that “online players can abuse realistic defense too easily”, or else real-life NBA players would have figured that out by now as well. Code realistic defense, and make players read and react.
              I get what you're saying, but 100 percent Czar is right that what you do for NBA defenses won't work in this game. The place where the early help would come from is the corner, and all we did in the past was immediately pass the ball to the corner guy once the help slacked at all and got 3 after 3. I would know since all I want to do every year in this game is shoot 3s haha -- especially corner 3s. Me and corner 3s would get married if we could.

              Now, you could argue that then code the game so the defenders get their hands on more balls or make it so vision matters more, or make it so most guys can't throw those LeBron cross-court dimes when the far-side corner guy is digging to bump the cutter on the pick and roll, but we also know people will immediately complain about that if passing is harder (not us, but the general audience). But point being, we as the "point guard" all have an inherent god mode that only the LeBrons of the world have in real life. We can see the whole court and all those angles immediately in such a way that's not realistic to a real NBA game and it does cause those inherent issues. Plus we can put the pace on those passes that only the LeBrons of the world can do as well generally.

              Which isn't me saying the system shouldn't be smart enough to help off Rodman early, but in a standard 5-out system where there are no Rodmans (everyone can shoot), it's going to be easy money for most of us because it's just making a simple read in a video game that would be much more taxing in real life since you have to have a certain level of strength/vision/savvy that is not required when just sitting on the couch.

              My ancillary point about how to defend 5 out in 2K is that it's hard for people to accept that you can't guard everything. Like if the pick is good in a 5-out, you're getting a free mid-range or pass or open shot off the dish because it's just like a "proper" read option where hey if you read the right key guy then something is there. It's just much easier to do that in a video game than real life as well. But people don't like accepting that you at least have to give up the wide open above the break 3 to the big or help somewhere to prevent the drive etc.

              We as users can defend the pick and roll just fine I think. You just use the hedge man and you can clean up most things (at least I can). But I think the focus should first be on actually making that hedge action work right for the AI player before going back to pondering about how to make the help D work more functionally. Even if you can't defend a good pick and roll 2 on 2 in real life most of the time unless you have two insane defenders, 2K needs to get that interaction better first for the AI before then properly incorporating the third man and those rotations that come with it.

              Also I'm still going to do a video on pick and roll defense and the defensive settings, it just has gotten a little bigger than first planned. So it's not like I don't share the concerns because I do.
              I won't ask for Christmas or birthday gifts if you subscribe to the Operation Sports Newsletter (Not Just Another Roster Update). I write it, and it hits your inbox every Friday morning (for freeeeeee). We also have an official OS Discord you can now join.

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              • Lagoa
                Pro
                • Apr 2008
                • 916

                #172
                Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still



                This is the dribble I use all the time to test the pick n roll defense and the CPU fails miserably 80% of the time. Even changing defense sliders ... nothing really works.

                Look at Lopez's attitude in defense, he just watches the opponent pass. I can repeat this move for 20x in a row that nothing changes ....
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                • CujoMatty
                  Member of Rush Nation
                  • Oct 2007
                  • 5445

                  #173
                  Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

                  Originally posted by Lagoa
                  https://twitter.com/lagoanba/status/1339400658542338048

                  This is the dribble I use all the time to test the pick n roll defense and the CPU fails miserably 80% of the time. Even changing defense sliders ... nothing really works.

                  Look at Lopez's attitude in defense, he just watches the opponent pass. I can repeat this move for 20x in a row that nothing changes ....
                  tha5s exactly the video that needs to be sent to Czar.
                  2016 NLL Champion Saskatchewan Rush
                  2018 NLL Champion Saskatchewan Rush
                  2019 CEBL Champion Saskatchewan Rattlers

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                  • Smirkin Dirk
                    All Star
                    • Oct 2008
                    • 5179

                    #174
                    Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

                    That one is bad. Lopez even screens off Jrue from getting a good angle back on to Simmons.
                    2022 'Plug and play' sim roster (XBX)

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                    • bls
                      MVP
                      • Oct 2003
                      • 1788

                      #175
                      Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

                      Originally posted by Lagoa
                      https://twitter.com/lagoanba/status/1339400658542338048

                      This is the dribble I use all the time to test the pick n roll defense and the CPU fails miserably 80% of the time. Even changing defense sliders ... nothing really works.

                      Look at Lopez's attitude in defense, he just watches the opponent pass. I can repeat this move for 20x in a row that nothing changes ....
                      Its like Czar said, in a pick n roll offense your gonna give up something. I totally agree with that. But I be damn if I give up both. You can't give up the drive to Ben and the pop to Embid.

                      I feel like that's where his missed the point in his live stream. I understand something has to give, but allow me to decide which one it is. In this situation I'm going under and I'm gonna give Ben the wide open J all day. This is where the game becomes chess. But the defense is so broken it leaves you in situations like this where you give up everything. No since in playing if its gonna be like this. And its even more of an insult to put a product on the shelf/or for digital purposes out to the masses like this. If anything a 2 year dev cycle would have been a better move. I understand that's not his call per se but it does give Alittle insight as to what Madden has been doing for all these years. Gotta have compassion and pride about something especially a product in which you've worked on.

                      Sent from my SM-F916U using Operation Sports mobile app

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                      • alabamarob
                        MVP
                        • Nov 2010
                        • 3341

                        #176
                        Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

                        All hail off ball defense. Ha
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                        Settings I play on.
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                        • Vedreanu
                          Rookie
                          • Apr 2020
                          • 224

                          #177
                          Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

                          Originally posted by bls
                          Its like Czar said, in a pick n roll offense your gonna give up something. I totally agree with that. But I be damn if I give up both. You can't give up the drive to Ben and the pop to Embid.

                          I feel like that's where his missed the point in his live stream. I understand something has to give, but allow me to decide which one it is. In this situation I'm going under and I'm gonna give Ben the wide open J all day. This is where the game becomes chess. But the defense is so broken it leaves you in situations like this where you give up everything. No since in playing if its gonna be like this. And its even more of an insult to put a product on the shelf/or for digital purposes out to the masses like this. If anything a 2 year dev cycle would have been a better move. I understand that's not his call per se but it does give Alittle insight as to what Madden has been doing for all these years. Gotta have compassion and pride about something especially a product in which you've worked on.

                          Sent from my SM-F916U using Operation Sports mobile app

                          I can understand Brook not being quick enough to stop Ben (eventhough in reality if he would be so slow he would by no means be playing in NBA).



                          Also, one could argue that better defensive settings need to be used, like "Catch hedge". And it would be all great, I would actually love it, to have the diversity and a bit of a tactical outwitting.


                          But maybe the biggest issue here is DiVincenzo doing absolutely ****ing nothing, eventhough being in place for a quick HelpD reaction!?!



                          And also, the fourth guy, in the paint, gives his help with about 2 second delay!



                          Its like the whole team has been food-poisoned before the game! :wink:

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                          • ChaseB
                            #BringBackFaceuary
                            • Oct 2003
                            • 9844

                            #178
                            Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

                            Originally posted by Lagoa
                            https://twitter.com/lagoanba/status/1339400658542338048

                            This is the dribble I use all the time to test the pick n roll defense and the CPU fails miserably 80% of the time. Even changing defense sliders ... nothing really works.

                            Look at Lopez's attitude in defense, he just watches the opponent pass. I can repeat this move for 20x in a row that nothing changes ....
                            What difficulty level is this on btw?
                            I won't ask for Christmas or birthday gifts if you subscribe to the Operation Sports Newsletter (Not Just Another Roster Update). I write it, and it hits your inbox every Friday morning (for freeeeeee). We also have an official OS Discord you can now join.

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                            • Lagoa
                              Pro
                              • Apr 2008
                              • 916

                              #179
                              Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

                              Originally posted by ChaseB
                              What difficulty level is this on btw?
                              HOF
                              CPU Defense Sliders (ALL 100)
                              CPU On Ball Defense 75
                              Lateral Quickness 50/100 (user/cpu)
                              Quickness 50/80 (user/cpu)

                              It's definitely not about speed. It's about the choices ...

                              The defenses do not mark the pick n roll .... the help NEVER HELPS .... it just looks at the opponent passing by.

                              See the video, Holliday is ok, on his opponent. Lopez was neither Joel or Ben, he just doesn't defense either.

                              And it happens IN THE 48MIN all game long! It seems that the game has not been tested for 2min.
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                              • The 24th Letter
                                ERA
                                • Oct 2007
                                • 39373

                                #180
                                Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

                                I'd turn the game on HOF default (because sliders can be fickle), and cycle through some pick & rolls...show what adjustments by the CPU are/ aren't working...

                                because when I try and duplicate that throughout the first quarter, it definitely doesn't look like THAT every time, lol...by the 3rd attempt they played it pretty well....though still lacking.

                                Maybe Czar can key in on something to help though.

                                Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk

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