Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

[alabamarob]

Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

When you guys bring up the defense settings, are you saying that you switch to the CPU team and set up their defense, then switch back? Or are you just referring to changing your own defensive settings?

Because I honestly just want to control what the CPU team does.

I am referring to the defensive settings do not do what they say they will do for my team.

[Vedreanu]

Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

When you guys bring up the defense settings, are you saying that you switch to the CPU team and set up their defense, then switch back? Or are you just referring to changing your own defensive settings?

Because I honestly just want to control what the CPU team does.

CPU settings didnt stick in 2k20 after all the patches. I dont know why they didnt dare to fix it, I would really love to see that, hell I would even pay for it.


But something tells me they wont change it.



On 2k21 the problem is settings wont stick even for USER teams, which is really a disaster. Lets be frank.

This is a top tier, expensive game. It was one of the products that should make Next gen consoles sell easier.



But one thing is for sure - I am no buying it any time soon after all the bugs.



Just cannot understand how a big firm like 2K can let such disaster happen ever, especially at this moment in time and space.


This is very very bad PR.

[soze416]

Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

Posted in the Next-Gen Impressions thread. Figured it belonged here as well:


The patch didn't really do much if anything to help PnR/help defense. So here's the fix until they improve it:

Pause > Gameplan > Coach Sliders > Help Defense - 100
This will make the defense rotate and help when needed.
*Unfortunately you'll have to do this for both teams at the start of every new Play Now game, except when selecting "Rematch" at any point after you've already made the change.*


Also make sure to tweak these gameplay sliders:

Defense
Drive Contact Shot Frequency - 100
Inside Contact Shot Frequency - 100

• These two sliders will make the game trigger contact animations when attempting a layup/shot near the basket, making the help defense actually matter instead of being ignored.

Help Defense Strength - 100
This is the big one. This is the setting that fixes the hedge defender and stops him from standing in place. With this setting at 100 the hedge defender will either drop into the paint or aggressively defend the ball off the dribble after a successful screen/pick. At any setting lower than 100, you will increasingly see him just stand and watch the play unfold.

Attributes
Acceleration - 35
Strength - Personal Preference

• Decrease to make screens/picks less affective, allowing the on-ball defender to brush past the screen faster. Increase to make screens/picks more affective, triggering more brick-wall animations during the screen.

Hands - 75 or Higher

• More deflected passes, making it more dangerous to pass into the paint or cross-court.

Dunking Ability - 35 (USER only)

• Triggers fewer dunk animations when defenders are nearby. Especially important when using a team with athletic forwards like Lebron, Giannis, etc. so that you won't constantly get bailed out by OP dunk animations against good defense.

Defensive Awareness - 75 or Higher

• Improves the defenses ability to know when help is needed, triggering earlier rotations when attacking the basket.

Lateral Quickness - 75 or Higher

• Increases lateral movement speed on defense, making it easier to cut off the lane to the basket.

Tendencies
Play Passing Lanes - 100

• Harder to abuse the roll man as nearby defenders will pay attention to the passing lane. Also seems to make the on-ball defender more willing to switch and cover the roll man instead of always abandoning him.

Go for On-Ball Steals - 100

• Makes the defense come alive and punish you for being careless or overly aggressive.

Contest Shots - 100

• Makes the defense prioritize protecting the rim, and triggers more contest attempts when a defender is nearby. Basically, if a defender rotates to help they'll actually try to contest a shot instead of standing there to watch.

Fouls
Charging Foul Frequency - 100/60

• Triggers more Charging calls against the USER, making it harder to get to the rim via sprint-abuse.

Shooting Foul Frequency - 100/60

• Fewer fouls called against the CPU defense, and more fouls called against the USER defense. If you still feel like the USER gets too many free trips to the line, decrease the CPU value by increments of 5 until satisfied.

Movement
Speed with Ball (Max rating) - 55 *Currently broken and seemingly has no effect*
Speed with Ball (Min rating) - 40
Acceleration with Ball (Max rating) - 55
Acceleration with Ball (Min rating) - 40
Speed without Ball (Max rating) - 75
Speed without Ball (Min rating) - 55
Acceleration without Ball (Max rating) - 75
Acceleration without Ball (Min rating) - 55

• Removes the slow-motion movement of unathletic bigs, while still making athletic players stand out. Slightly hampers the user's ability to sprint-abuse their way to the basket, though a recent tuner by 2K broke the functionality of the "Speed with Ball (Max)" slider so there's no longer a way to slow down the top-speed of players with the ball via sliders. Today's patch did not fix this. Athletic forwards are too fast with ball and have very little weight to their movement.

Yea, a lot of information here but I've been working on this crap for too many hours

TL/DR: Help Defense in the Coach Sliders will improve how quickly and how often the defense rotates to help protect the rim. Help Defense Strength in the gameplay sliders controls the ability and frequency of the hedge defender actually playing defense instead of standing still and watching the play. Setting both of these to 100 will vastly improve your gameplay. You can then tweak the game from there by utilizing all of the other sliders at your disposal.

I didn't even touch on the Layup/Jump Shot Defense Strength sliders, but I wrote a whole post about those before if people want see how deep this rabbit hole goes lol

The coaching slider one will help you see a difference in the weak side help and driving help. It just sucks that it has to be inputted every time you start a game. It would be nice if they added that slider to the coaching profile in the roster editor menu like many roster makers have asked the past few years

[EccentricMeat]

Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

The coaching slider one will help you see a difference in the weak side help and driving help. It just sucks that it has to be inputted every time you start a game. It would be nice if they added that slider to the coaching profile in the roster editor menu like many roster makers have asked the past few years

Yea, it’s strange that Help Defense is the only slider missing from that menu. Definitely an oversight and I can’t believe it would be difficult to fix.

Though if you do 30-team control in MyNBA you can set each team once and be done with it [emoji1305]

[ChaseB]

Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

Well that video was discouraging.

He honestly doesnt even know what the biggest issue is with the pick and roll. He describes every problem there is but none of them are actually the game breaker. Fast players are blowing by the screen before they can switch or come off the screen for easy lay ups. Hes talking about pulling this guy or that guy for rotations when none of that is necessary. Just make the big quicker to get in position under the rim or at least add a contact animation.

He basically said it is what it is and I warned you all before you bought. That's pretty not ideal. lol

The thing I liked about Czar is how he was meticulous in holding 2k accountable for basketball systems and authenticity. Now it sounds like he doesnt even have time to play his own game.

This is an incorrect statement. He does discuss the player speed issue, but he says it's not something he can control -- it's in the back half of the video. He had more input on player speed in the past but the community at large did not agree with his input as much (aka Czar went too sim and people didn't like not being able to easily blow by people etc.)

And him being honest about how he couldn't fix certain pick and roll issues -- which he did before release -- is refreshing to me because he did tell us ahead of time so people could make their own buying decision. He explained why he couldn't fix it and what he did instead as a base for future years.

[rudyjuly2]

Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

Are we going to get a fix this year or not lol? Pick and roll is such a basic play and there are just some terrible plays that happen too much. I’m all for natural fluctuation and odd plays once in awhile but it can be abused. Jumping through hoops with a ton of slider adjustments that can wreck other stuff isn’t ideal either.

In this example below, why does Covington get lost and play horrible defence? A Junior varsity HS kid would play better. Give up the outside and then not even turn and try. Covington wouldn’t play like this in-game if it was an ISO play. So why does he do it in this scenario? Does the game jump from a normal defence to a separate PNR gameplay engine where defenders are dazed, confused and useless? Covington isn’t even in bad position. He just doesn’t try. Why?

https://twitter.com/rudyjuly2/status/1338438565303357443?s=21

[EccentricMeat]

Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

Are we going to get a fix this year or not lol? Pick and roll is such a basic play and there are just some terrible plays that happen too much. I’m all for natural fluctuation and odd plays once in awhile but it can be abused. Jumping through hoops with a ton of slider adjustments that can wreck other stuff isn’t ideal either.

In this example below, why does Covington get lost and play horrible defence? A Junior varsity HS kid would play better. Give up the outside and then not even turn and try. Covington wouldn’t play like this in-game if it was an ISO play. So why does he do it in this scenario? Does the game jump from a normal defence to a separate PNR gameplay engine where defenders are dazed, confused and useless? Covington isn’t even in bad position. He just doesn’t try. Why?

https://twitter.com/rudyjuly2/status...303357443?s=21

He’s more worried about playing the passing lane than contesting the shot. What are those tendencies set to in your sliders? Also with the default rosters, every coach profile has Help Defense set to 50 or lower for the team. During the PnR, the hedge defender is considered a help defender, so if the coach profile is saying he shouldn’t help then he will hold his position to cover the roll man and hope the on-ball defender gets back into position.

[ChaseB]

Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

Are we going to get a fix this year or not lol? Pick and roll is such a basic play and there are just some terrible plays that happen too much. I’m all for natural fluctuation and odd plays once in awhile but it can be abused. Jumping through hoops with a ton of slider adjustments that can wreck other stuff isn’t ideal either.

In this example below, why does Covington get lost and play horrible defence? A Junior varsity HS kid would play better. Give up the outside and then not even turn and try. Covington wouldn’t play like this in-game if it was an ISO play. So why does he do it in this scenario? Does the game jump from a normal defence to a separate PNR gameplay engine where defenders are dazed, confused and useless? Covington isn’t even in bad position. He just doesn’t try. Why?

https://twitter.com/rudyjuly2/status...303357443?s=21

He's trying to sit between ball and man because I don't think any switch took place, thus that's still the player who got picked's man even though it shouldn't be. Eccentric points out some stuff in his latest post, but also part of it is an inherent way the covering system works. The AI player will try to keep the ball and the player he's covering between him. Therefore he's not leaning as much as he should be already to the baseline to stop ball itself and hedge since that's not his mark. Then when he finally does react, player speed is such where he's not going to be able to open his hips and move because even though Cov is an elite defender, he's still a PF who probably doesn't have amazing speed so he's just going to get blitzed by a guard going downhill while he's flat footed.

Again, this isn't me giving excuses, more just trying to explain what's happening there in that clip.

[sperlz_99]

Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

Are we going to get a fix this year or not lol? Pick and roll is such a basic play and there are just some terrible plays that happen too much. I’m all for natural fluctuation and odd plays once in awhile but it can be abused. Jumping through hoops with a ton of slider adjustments that can wreck other stuff isn’t ideal either.

In this example below, why does Covington get lost and play horrible defence? A Junior varsity HS kid would play better. Give up the outside and then not even turn and try. Covington wouldn’t play like this in-game if it was an ISO play. So why does he do it in this scenario? Does the game jump from a normal defence to a separate PNR gameplay engine where defenders are dazed, confused and useless? Covington isn’t even in bad position. He just doesn’t try. Why?

https://twitter.com/rudyjuly2/status...303357443?s=21

Unfortunately my friend I would say its unlikely. I had stopped buying 2k games as certain legacy issues kept reappearing time after time but after some very positive (now questionable) reviews of this next gen game I really fancied giving it a go and getting a fun mynba career going. But the game feels as though it's gone backwards. The cpu is poor in offense and abysmal in defense.

The clearest issue is speed of certain players but czar said it's out of his hands and if theres no collaboration between what he does with the game and the people who have said the imbalance with pace is how they want it to be, then theres no hope of a fix. The game is therefore too easy and totally unplayable for how I like to play and will remain that way for the remainder of this version I would imagine.

I'm a sim gamer, I like realistic, challenging gameplay. I can accept things like rebounds being too high or something like that, but the issues this game has are just too bad and the game has no purpose for me anymore. So I sold my game, made about a 25% loss on it. Hopefully in the future in a couple of years the game will play a bit better, but I have doubts because of that q and a with czar and the path it seems the developers are trying to take.

[strosdood]

Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

Unfortunately my friend I would say its unlikely. I had stopped buying 2k games as certain legacy issues kept reappearing time after time but after some very positive (now questionable) reviews of this next gen game I really fancied giving it a go and getting a fun mynba career going. But the game feels as though it's gone backwards. The cpu is poor in offense and abysmal in defense.



The clearest issue is speed of certain players but czar said it's out of his hands and if theres no collaboration between what he does with the game and the people who have said the imbalance with pace is how they want it to be, then theres no hope of a fix. The game is therefore too easy and totally unplayable for how I like to play and will remain that way for the remainder of this version I would imagine.



I'm a sim gamer, I like realistic, challenging gameplay. I can accept things like rebounds being too high or something like that, but the issues this game has are just too bad and the game has no purpose for me anymore. So I sold my game, made about a 25% loss on it. Hopefully in the future in a couple of years the game will play a bit better, but I have doubts because of that q and a with czar and the path it seems the developers are trying to take.

U sold the best 2K game we’ve ever gotten...... if this year discouraged u to the point of selling then I don’t see you ever being satisfied with 2K...... just my opinion


Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

[strosdood]

Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

Are we going to get a fix this year or not lol? Pick and roll is such a basic play and there are just some terrible plays that happen too much. I’m all for natural fluctuation and odd plays once in awhile but it can be abused. Jumping through hoops with a ton of slider adjustments that can wreck other stuff isn’t ideal either.



In this example below, why does Covington get lost and play horrible defence? A Junior varsity HS kid would play better. Give up the outside and then not even turn and try. Covington wouldn’t play like this in-game if it was an ISO play. So why does he do it in this scenario? Does the game jump from a normal defence to a separate PNR gameplay engine where defenders are dazed, confused and useless? Covington isn’t even in bad position. He just doesn’t try. Why?



https://twitter.com/rudyjuly2/status...303357443?s=21

It almost seemed like he was expecting help to come and didn’t wanna completely leave his man but there was no one protecting the basket so it ended up being a easy layup instead


Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

[The 24th Letter]

Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

This is an incorrect statement. He does discuss the player speed issue, but he says it's not something he can control -- it's in the back half of the video. He had more input on player speed in the past but the community at large did not agree with his input as much (aka Czar went too sim and people didn't like not being able to easily blow by people etc.)

And him being honest about how he couldn't fix certain pick and roll issues -- which he did before release -- is refreshing to me because he did tell us ahead of time so people could make their own buying decision. He explained why he couldn't fix it and what he did instead as a base for future years.

That Q&A was about as transparent & open as you're going to get from a dev....even opened the door for feedback.. I feel like that's what we're constantly asking for as a community. Anyone hit Czar with vids or comment on his YT he said he'll be monitoring for the next couple of weeks?

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk

[Lagoa]

Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

EccentricMeat, I really appreciate all of your attempt and detailed explanation of how to try to fix the pick n roll problem in the game.

After using your sliders and your roster changes, the game improves, but honestly, very little ... the problem still exists and appears all the time.

And particularly, after making the modifications, the players move very unreally, everyone is exaggeratedly slow, with slow movements .... anyway, thank you, but for me it didn't solve the problem.

The game is still broken for me, because now, I can master pick n roll with almost any player.

[alabamarob]

Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

That Q&A was about as transparent & open as you're going to get from a dev....even opened the door for feedback.. I feel like that's what we're constantly asking for as a community. Anyone hit Czar with vids or comment on his YT he said he'll be monitoring for the next couple of weeks?

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk

I sent him a comment about the defensive settings not working. I didn’t want to send him a video unless he asked for it.

[rudyjuly2]

Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

I think the comment about speed or pace being the issue is false. In my last video the defender got beat because he was an idiot. And even if he was super slow then just sink to the basket and dare the mid range! Speed isn’t the issue. It’s decision making and a lack of awareness at protecting the rim at all costs. Sliders can help the PNR issue but the under the hood stuff needs fixing.

That said, while many of us have issues with beating the cpu with it, how many of you have complained about the cpu abusing us with it? It doesn’t happen! I play a mix of on ball and off ball defence and it seems that my defenders play it better and/or the cpu dribbler doesn’t really make me pay. I play on a modified all-star but I keep both user and cpu sliders the same. In this clip from tonight rookie Bey (who projects to be a decent defender but is rated 72 or 73 in the game) plays defence better than Covington. Bey at least keeps moving his feet unlike flat footed cpu Covington. And Plumlee helps too. Any chance there is a bug in the cpu logic that doesn’t mess us up? Or am I crazy?

https://twitter.com/rudyjuly2/status/1339364135138680833?s=21