Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on release

[kwabalicious]

Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

Go to scrimmage. Keep spamming manual pick and roll. Rarely does help come. The roller waltzes through the lane.

There may be some logic recognising I’m not actually making the pass so need to send help, but I wish I did this at launch to compare.

It’s clearly broken.

At launch if I ran a pick and roll with 2 shooters on the weak side, the weak side corner defender would help and the other defender would play both if I got a clear path to the lane. The defender playing both would take the first pass to the weak side and the help defender would scramble to the open man.

That whole ‘playing both’ seems to be completely non existent now, nevermind the weak side corner actually helping.

[alabamarob]

Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

Ya, I mean it doesn’t help the user with settings not working correctly but at least the cpu could adjust properly I’m hoping?!

Doesn’t matter if it is before or after a timeout. Does not matter if it is the user or the CPU. They have gone back to 2k21 defense.


<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/KUi6irrWe_Q" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

They are huggin Capela outside the 3, and no one is helping on clear drives to the rim. This is very disappointing. This is HOF against a highly rated Heat defense.

[Smirkin Dirk]

Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

It’s clearly broken.

At launch if I ran a pick and roll with 2 shooters on the weak side, the weak side corner defender would help and the other defender would play both if I got a clear path to the lane. The defender playing both would take the first pass to the weak side and the help defender would scramble to the open man.

That whole ‘playing both’ seems to be completely non existent now, nevermind the weak side corner actually helping.

Just played a game, and the 2 times help came on the drive, it came from the strong side corner one pass away.

Here's an example. I don't mind this occasionally (as bad help D should be baked into ratings...i.e. bad teams should help incorrectly). But this was all I saw.

https://<iframe width="560" height="...reen></iframe>

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsnY1VuYkRA

Early in the game's release, I was sure I was seeing the big defending the dunker's spot (Is that Okongwu, Rob?) be the help then the weakside corner bump down to help the helper. Not seeing that at the moment, and Im hitting instant replay after every drive to see exactly what is happening.

[strosdood]

Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

Doesn’t matter if it is before or after a timeout. Does not matter if it is the user or the CPU. They have gone back to 2k21 defense.


<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/KUi6irrWe_Q" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

They are huggin Capela outside the 3, and no one is helping on clear drives to the rim. This is very disappointing. This is HOF against a highly rated Heat defense.

I hope czar responds to what he believes is going on in these situations……. I wish I would’ve turned my Internet off after release, the defensive logic was a lot better


Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

[Reddcheese]

Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

Woeful. Really sad they did this. Doesn't give me any faith for future editions. Seems like they got their positive reviews and now time to get make those microtransactioners happy. Fifa time!!

Doesn’t matter if it is before or after a timeout. Does not matter if it is the user or the CPU. They have gone back to 2k21 defense.


<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/KUi6irrWe_Q" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

They are huggin Capela outside the 3, and no one is helping on clear drives to the rim. This is very disappointing. This is HOF against a highly rated Heat defense.

[ChaseB]

Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

Going to request folks try not to turn this into a war of comp vs. others discussion if at all possible because it serves no real purpose other than to howl at the moon. I think the general official stance should be that help defense from the corners was screwed up before the patch, and they just flat out fixed it the wrong way to this point as the band-aid option.

The help defense in 2K has always been an issue -- it was still an issue before the patch just in different ways -- and it was course corrected now in a bad way to try and "quick fix" a bigger issue with strong vs. weak-side help from the corners and the long-term issues there overall. The problem morphs through the years between players recovering too quickly or botching one vs. two pass away and on and on, but the help defense is always a point of contention.

That being said, yes I would agree they made defense worse for all crowds with this change, which is again why I would say this was just a bad move regardless of what audience you fall into. I don't see any sect like praising the change in a huge majority way -- at least among the 5-on-5 crowd. There may be some portions of the MyPlayer community I'm missing in some way, but I don't see why this change would really help those online very much unless they're running with lots of AI teammates.

By all means, keep posting examples and other things you're looking at on this topic since it's helpful to show off the issues and what's being tested, but pre-patch the issues were not just impacting "comp" players etc. with the problem here. It was an easy exploit offline as well if you wanted it to be. This isn't to say that you couldn't play solid defense before patch either, because in general scoring is down vs. last year, but you could still weasel these opportunities if you wanted. Now it's just more obvious where the issue is since it's right on ball once the point of attack gets broken down.

(And alabamarob, my buddy and pal, you know this isn't really a "blame the comp people for whining issue" at the end of the day since we've talked many times about how a lot of this goes back to individual settings being the core issue here since you can't modify the defense how you see fit -- and comp players would love if those individual settings worked just as much as we would -- thus you're at the mercy of how 2K tweaks help defense on a global level, which is the biggest problem here anyway. Use your immense powers for good, not to whine about XYZ players whining as the scapegoat option since it just lets 2K off the hook for making a bad change for pretty much everyone -- plus, then it's just a double whine )

[el jimmy]

Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

Go to scrimmage. Keep spamming manual pick and roll. Rarely does help come. The roller waltzes through the lane.

There may be some logic recognising I’m not actually making the pass so need to send help, but I wish I did this at launch to compare.

It was the first thing I did at launch. I gave up after about 10 tries of being stifled by the cpu and started running plays. It was glorious.

[alabamarob]

Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

Going to request folks try not to turn this into a war of comp vs. others discussion if at all possible because it serves no real purpose other than to howl at the moon. I think the general official stance should be that help defense from the corners was screwed up before the patch, and they just flat out fixed it the wrong way to this point as the band-aid option.

The help defense in 2K has always been an issue -- it was still an issue before the patch just in different ways -- and it was course corrected now in a bad way to try and "quick fix" a bigger issue with strong vs. weak-side help from the corners and the long-term issues there overall. The problem morphs through the years between players recovering too quickly or botching one vs. two pass away and on and on, but the help defense is always a point of contention.

That being said, yes I would agree they made defense worse for all crowds with this change, which is again why I would say this was just a bad move regardless of what audience you fall into. I don't see any sect like praising the change in a huge majority way -- at least among the 5-on-5 crowd. There may be some portions of the MyPlayer community I'm missing in some way, but I don't see why this change would really help those online very much unless they're running with lots of AI teammates.

By all means, keep posting examples and other things you're looking at on this topic since it's helpful to show off the issues and what's being tested, but pre-patch the issues were not just impacting "comp" players etc. with the problem here. It was an easy exploit offline as well if you wanted it to be. This isn't to say that you couldn't play solid defense before patch either, because in general scoring is down vs. last year, but you could still weasel these opportunities if you wanted. Now it's just more obvious where the issue is since it's right on ball once the point of attack gets broken down.

(And alabamarob, my buddy and pal, you know this isn't really a "blame the comp people for whining issue" at the end of the day since we've talked many times about how a lot of this goes back to individual settings being the core issue here since you can't modify the defense how you see fit, thus you're at the mercy of how 2K tweaks help defense on a global level, which is the biggest problem here anyway. Use your immense powers for good, not to whine about XYZ players whining as the scapegoat option since it just lets 2K off the hook for making a bad change for pretty much everyone -- plus, then it's just a double whine )

My intention was not to hate on anyone or blame anyone. I am a positive guy by nature. So if that is how it came off then my bad. I was simply repeating the explanation given for “cutter” help. Then when I found out it was just help defense in general I was surprised. No beef with the My Career or “comp” guys. I won’t mention that phrase anymore. Ha

[ChaseB]

Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

My intention was not to hate on anyone or blame anyone. I am a positive guy by nature. So if that is how it came off then my bad. I was simply repeating the explanation given for “cutter” help. Then when I found out it was just help defense in general I was surprised. No beef with the My Career or “comp” guys. I won’t mention that phrase anymore. Ha

All gravy baby (also I embedded your video in the first post in the thread. I may also just make this thread a news post next week at some point if 2K doesn't make a further tweak.)

I would add an addendum to say the people who do like this change would be those who just wanted to play offline MyTeam stuff like last year, which was just call pick and roll and then profit. So if anyone maybe is happy with this tweak it would be the "casual" crowd or those who just want to turn their brain off and do the same 1-2 things every time down the court with a pick and roll. There were some exploits you could do against the AI to get your constant corner open 3s, but that took a smidge more effort than just dribbling up and pressing pick and roll button every time.

[vannwolfhawk]

Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

When you went into CPU coaching settings to double your players, did it at least work AT ALL? Any of the time? That’s an important factor in determining whether this game can even match 2K21. Because in 21 I was able to double my own players using the CPU settings and it did make the game feel more alive and competitive.



So to be sure. You’re saying that ACE (on) may be the best to get CPU to double us?

No, I’m not sure it’s because of ACE. But I get doubled a ton in post or on permeter a ton if hot. But I’m playing with an edited roster.

Doesn’t matter if it is before or after a timeout. Does not matter if it is the user or the CPU. They have gone back to 2k21 defense.


<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/KUi6irrWe_Q" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

They are huggin Capela outside the 3, and no one is helping on clear drives to the rim. This is very disappointing. This is HOF against a highly rated Heat defense.

Gotcha… that sucks… I saw your video. Good examples for them to see… that stepback create space move you can help d stop btw with upping the cpu d awareness. I found that out by trying to find a stop for the cpu for it as it was way to easy to explode out of it against cpu. Borderline cheese.

So, I guess it’s just wait for the next patch. Hopefully it’s before the season starts. I’m so over the constant changes every update where the game changes and constantly have to redo sliders.

[Smirkin Dirk]

Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

Initially, the base of a good D was really there. At times it was great. Something has happened.

Playing the Hawks with Utah? Tell Rudy to let Capela roam. Sag off. be the primary help D by playing drop coverage. Tell your corners not to help as you have the Frenchman there.

Or you choose to switch everything. You can choose where the help comes from if you get beat on the ball. You can base it on strong or weakside. Or choose help to come off the worst shooter on the weakside.

CZar has explained how difficult this is, but it's nice to dream.

At least this pre-patch/update/whatever showed the base is there.

Until it wasnt.

[alabamarob]

Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

No, I’m not sure it’s because of ACE. But I get doubled a ton in post or on permeter a ton if hot. But I’m playing with an edited roster.



Gotcha… that sucks… I saw your video. Good examples for them to see… that stepback create space move you can help d stop btw with upping the cpu d awareness. I found that out by trying to find a stop for the cpu for it as it was way to easy to explode out of it against cpu. Borderline cheese.

So, I guess it’s just wait for the next patch. Hopefully it’s before the season starts. I’m so over the constant changes every update where the game changes and constantly have to redo sliders.

I honestly think it is a bug or mistake. Past experience tells me that Czar spends a lot of time getting things right, and didn’t kill the help defense. I am going to guess when he removed cutter help, that it bugged the regular help on drives. The next roster update or patch will probably fix that.

If just caught me off guard so.

Additionally, I don’t have any cheese dribble moves. If there was one then I would use it since they run around and play chest to chest defense with every player at half court.

The CPU is not giving up space so you should be able to drive at will against most guys. My drive success rate is trash on average. We do not need more aware and better on ball defense in this game. Please no.

[Smirkin Dirk]

Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

This is a video from el jimmy.

https://<iframe width="560" height="...reen></iframe>

You can see again the help comes from the strong side one pass away (Im seeing this a lot) but even then it's way too slow.

I don't think a screen was registered as no contact was made. I dont think pick and roll help is a factor there, it's a straight line drive, with a slow rotation than came from the wrong spot.

[vannwolfhawk]

Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

I honestly think it is a bug or mistake. Past experience tells me that Czar spends a lot of time getting things right, and didn’t kill the help defense. I am going to guess when he removed cutter help, that it bugged the regular help on drives. The next roster update or patch will probably fix that.

If just caught me off guard so.

Additionally, I don’t have any cheese dribble moves. If there was one then I would use it since they run around and play chest to chest defense with every player at half court.

The CPU is not giving up space so you should be able to drive at will against most guys. My drive success rate is trash on average. We do not need more aware and better on ball defense in this game. Please no.

Lol!

Ya I agree I think it will get fixed but because of threads like this with video evidence that is helpful. BTW, I do believe I saw a czar video where he said the cutter help and drive help are coded completely seperate.

I agree with dribble moves being able to beat guys especially how they did out of the box d. But I could do a cross right to left, create space like you do in the video, then explode cross back to right. I could do it 100% and beat cpu. That’s how I went down a slider rabbit hole for the cpu to stop it at least 50% of the time. Because we still need counter moves to work just not at 100% of time. But we aren’t comparing apples to apples with sliders so our experiences are also probably different. For example My sliders don’t have stone walls. More freedom of movement and hip rides.

[Smirkin Dirk]

Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

Yep, the hip rides are great, when's there's some backside help. But if there's none it's basically the defender escorting you in for a mildly contested lay up.